How would Operation Barbarossa (in 1941) have looked like had the Soviet Union advanced much deeper into Poland in 1939?

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Futurist
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Re: How would Operation Barbarossa (in 1941) have looked like had the Soviet Union advanced much deeper into Poland in 1

Post by Futurist » 18 Sep 2020 23:00

Lars wrote:
18 Sep 2020 19:02
Yes.
What borders? Do you know?

Also, do you know why Nazi Germany annexed Bialytsok and the surrounding areas? :

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/images/l ... QeV8xh.gif

Image

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Re: How would Operation Barbarossa (in 1941) have looked like had the Soviet Union advanced much deeper into Poland in 1

Post by maltesefalcon » 19 Sep 2020 03:01

Futurist wrote:
18 Sep 2020 22:58
maltesefalcon wrote:
18 Sep 2020 19:40
Lars wrote:
17 Sep 2020 13:24
I don't think Germany took any part of Lithuania in 1941 or later. Memel was taken before the war. So no annexation in 1939 either.

https://i.redd.it/nf03m6rlulb51.png
Maybe I am misunderstanding the context of the statement above. But here is a short clip ex Wkipedia article re: Barbarossa 1941.

"On June 22, 1941, the territory of the Lithuanian SSR was invaded by two advancing German army groups: Army Group North, which took over western and northern Lithuania, and Army Group Centre, which took over most of the Vilnius Region."
I think that he means in terms of formal annexation of Lithuanian territory to Germany.
Sorry you did not write the comment to which my reply was addressed. I would prefer to hear from that person, please.

Meanwhile, the word annexation is mere semantics in this case. The Germans occupied the country for nearly four years and treated it as a puppet state. I will source Wiki once again:

"The Germans did not recognize the Lithuanian government, and at the end of July formed their own civil administration – the Reichskommissariat Ostland, which was divided into four Generalbezirk. Adrian von Renteln became the commander of Generalbezirk Litauen and took over all government functions. The Provisional Government resigned on August 5; some of its ministers became General Advisers (Lithuanian: generalinis tarėjas) in charge of local self-government. The Germans did not have enough manpower to staff local administration; therefore, most local offices were headed by the Lithuanians. Policy decisions would be made by high-ranking Germans and actually implemented by low-ranking Lithuanians."

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Lars
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Re: How would Operation Barbarossa (in 1941) have looked like had the Soviet Union advanced much deeper into Poland in 1

Post by Lars » 19 Sep 2020 09:47

Yes. The context is:

* If the Soviets insist on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact's original division of Poland along the Vistula then the Germans would also insist on the original deal that Lithuania is part of the German sphere of interest.

* Lithuania would then be a German vassal state.

* When the Soviets put troops in Estonia and Latvia in 1940 the Germans will put troops in Lithuania.

* This means than the northern part of Barbarossa will start from Lithuania instead of East Prussia.

* This almost guarantees that Leningrad is taken.

* Moscow would also be in danger as Lithuania is closer to Moscow than East Prussia. Plus the conquest of Leningrad frees up the Germans to go after Moscow.

* The downside would be that the central part of Barbarossa would have to start from the Visula in Poland instead of the historical starting line in Poland along the Bug.

* If I had to choose for the Germans I would choose Lithuania over the area between Vistual and Bug as the better starting position for Barbarossa.

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Re: How would Operation Barbarossa (in 1941) have looked like had the Soviet Union advanced much deeper into Poland in 1

Post by Futurist » 20 Sep 2020 07:15

Why did the Germans choose more Polish territory over Lithuania?

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Re: How would Operation Barbarossa (in 1941) have looked like had the Soviet Union advanced much deeper into Poland in 1

Post by wm » 02 Oct 2020 20:13

It was the other way, the Soviets choose Lithuania over more Polish territory.
The Germans didn't have anything to say in it. They needed the Soviets, the Soviets didn't need them.

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Re: How would Operation Barbarossa (in 1941) have looked like had the Soviet Union advanced much deeper into Poland in 1

Post by Futurist » 03 Oct 2020 03:04

wm wrote:
02 Oct 2020 20:13
It was the other way, the Soviets choose Lithuania over more Polish territory.
The Germans didn't have anything to say in it. They needed the Soviets, the Soviets didn't need them.
What made the Soviets value Lithuania more? Its greater proximity to Leningrad? Something else?

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