What if Germany won at Kursk?

Tim Smith · Post by **Tim Smith** » 18 Jul 2003 19:38

Germany's best option was not to fight the Battle of Kursk at all. Better to evacuate the Orel salient, straighten the line, and then either attack somewhere else along the front, or put the Panzers in reserve, wait for the Soviets to attack first and then use the Panzer Army to smash them when they do.

Imagine the Battle of Kursk in reverse, with the Germans on the defensive initially, followed by a massive counterattack once the Soviets were exhausted and over-extended.

Kelt · Post by **Kelt** » 18 Jul 2003 22:59

Heh.. an Irishman, a Welshman and a Scot all in a row

Away the Celts.

I think Kursk was a necessarily bad idea. The Germans could have fought a defensive war at that point, rather than risking the appalling losses that Kursk inflicted upon them. To do that, however, would have been to consign the Reich to the inevitable defeat from attrition.

The Soviets could have endlessly thrown tanks and men at a German defensive line, knowing that in the end the Germans are just going to run out of men and material.

Kurk was necessary because it puts the Germans in the driving seat, it gives them the opportunity to keep the Soviets off balance. The chances of winning were slim to none, even Hitler knew that, but at that stage it was important that the Germans try to regain the momentum of Barbarossa.

An offensive war was the only way in which the Germans could hope to win.

Hitler himself said, just before Kursk, that the idea of attacking 'Turns my stomach'.

But what choice did he have?

In answer to the question, "What if the Germans had won"?

My answer is that there would have been another Kursk. Winning would only have prolonged the inevitable.

Major Linden · Post by **Major Linden** » 19 Jul 2003 02:16

Tim Smith wrote:Germany's best option was not to fight the Battle of Kursk at all. Better to evacuate the Orel salient, straighten the line, and... put the Panzers in reserve, wait for the Soviets to attack first and then use the Panzer Army to smash them when they do.

Tend to agree...

The Germans tried striking first in two successive summer offensives with nary a decisive result. Clearly, the time had come for a radical shift in strategy.

In the event the Germans had adopted a defensive posture, (and succeeded in countering the Russian breakthrough), the sudden stalemate may have provided the impetus for a renewed round of peace talks.

(Recall the two sides had already held preliminary discussions prior to the onset of Kursk).

With the Red Army stopped dead in it`s tracks, such talks may have had a greater chance of success. (What with Stalin more likely to grant the territorial concessions demanded by the Germans in the opening round).

Regards,

The Major

lisset · Post by **lisset** » 19 Jul 2003 09:14

A German officer who took aprt in BBC "Timewatch" programe about Kursk mentioned that when the Order for Citadel was "announced" it was with an air of theatre...the officers assembled were simply told by Hitler , after "he had been announced".
Guderian and Manstein were both against the operation but the corporal wanted / stated he had to attack for political reasons...to show Germany was still attacking and not defending.
As Tim stated the "back hand " which Manstein wanted was to allow the Russians to atack and the germans to destroy them in well planned counter attacks .
Unfortunatley for the German army Hitler was always there to screw things up...it must have been awful to try and work with him in any capacity.
The grand scale of Citadel , the staking it all on one throw of the dice , the illusion , and total disregard for advice and avoidance of reality which marked it is again so typical of the Fuhrer.

Champymiddle · Post by **Champymiddle** » 20 Jul 2003 15:37

if kursk was won germans would lamost certainly have regained their momentum. Russian losses would be severe especially in tanks.... Germans may even have numerical superiority of tanks just like the battles of Tannenberg and the masurian lakes those defeats was a serious blow to the russian army the russians lost 2 entire armies in the battles and they could not recover and those armies were the entire north army group. Another cannae or encirclement at kursk would have wiped out several russian armies.

Reviewer · Post by **Reviewer** » 03 Jun 2005 13:21

Would a German victory in the encirclement of Kursk result in peace between the CCCP and NS-Germany?

Polynikes · Post by **Polynikes** » 03 Jun 2005 17:09

Reviewer wrote:Would a German victory in the encirclement of Kursk result in peace between the CCCP and NS-Germany?

No.

Lkefct · Post by **Lkefct** » 05 Jun 2005 17:28

A victory at Kursk would have destroyed a tremendous force that represents a large fraction of the total soviet force, and an even larger fraction of the artillery and tanks avaibile. However, the Soviet enjoy a large reserve. While a loss at Kursk would be devistating, it would not cripple the Soviets. I do think it would have crippled their immediate offensive designs for the summer, and given the initative back to the Germans. It might well have allowed the Germans to launch a series of attacks that would have lead to bleeding the Soviets down and exhausting their manpower in the early part of 1944 had they been able to launch each successive attack after one another.

That is a lot of "IF's", at a time where the Soviet military was really coming into it's own, and the germans where starting to really feel the pressure of a multi-front war. Directly Kursk is only one big, but important battle.

Krakov · Post by **Krakov** » 05 Jun 2005 17:50

If Germany had won at Kurks - so many soviet armies would be destroyed that they coulden't launch their huge '44 offensive. Stalin would sign a separate peace with Germany and let the capitalists tire eachother. Germany would have a new chance at winning the war.

stg 44 · Post by **stg 44** » 05 Jun 2005 18:01

Weren't there also several battles going on all over the east front at this time? The soviets had exteremely large numbers of troops to throw into battle. At kursk wasn't it like 2.2 million or something close? If they had these forces, plus the strength to fight all over the east front at the same time, the battle of kursk wasn't going to mean much if the Germans won. The Soviets would just continue attacking somewhere else and breaching the line. Besides the western allies were invading sicily and starting the italian campaign at the same time. The only way the Germans could pull a stalemate off was fight mobile defensive battles like manstein wanted to. The Germans just could not match the allies strength of numbers at this point in the war. However the soviet armies were not limitless. Even at the end of the war, they were starting to feel the pinch of a lower manpower pool. So, if manstein's elastic front idea could continually wipe out russian armies, stalin may be forced to the peace table when he starts running out of people.

Christian W. · Post by **Christian W.** » 05 Jun 2005 18:53

The soviets had exteremely large numbers of troops to throw into battle. At kursk wasn't it like 2.2 million or something close?

Corrrect me If I am wrong.

German:

900,000 men, 2,700 AFVs, 2,000 aircraft

Soviet:

1,300,000 men, 3,600 AFVs, 2,400 aircraft

Krakov · Post by **Krakov** » 05 Jun 2005 19:00

Didn't the soviets lose half of their armor at Kursk? And they could repair alot of tanks aswell, due to the german defeat. The other battles were relatively small, the soviets collected troops form all of their other 'fronts' and bottled them around Kursk. The loss would of been terrible. Manstein himself wanted to finish off Kursk, but Hitler sent the divisions needed to Italy instead.
The italian campain meant nothing to Stalin, he clearly saw it as a sideshow, which it was.

stg 44 · Post by **stg 44** » 05 Jun 2005 19:28

Thanks for the correction christian, I just pulled the number out of the deep reccesses of my brain.

F/PAUL · Post by **F/PAUL** » 06 Jun 2005 21:53

If a "win" at Kursk is defined as the successful termination of the battle at Prokhorovka in favor of the germans, then I submit the following. If Army Detachment Kempf had joined the SS panzer Korps on the field, 5th Guards tank army would have been completely defeated. The russian 6th Guards and 69th armies were already in poor shape as was Katukov's 1st Tank Army. 7thGuards Army opposite Army Detachment Kempf had also suffered casualties. Therefore, with these armies now written down, the russians have a big hole in the line. To plug it they will have to move forces from the reserve or halt the counteroffensive around Orel. Since the entire Soviet counter-offensive was predicated upon writing down the germans at Kursk, a victory by the germans in the South would have thrown all their plans into disarray and probably prolonged the war by at least a year.

ViKinG · Post by **ViKinG** » 07 Jun 2005 03:43

For the Germans to be able to grasp Victory from the Battles around Kursk, they would need the reserves that the Soviets had. If they could pull off a victory in the field, they would have to launch successive waves of assaults all along the salient to throw the Soviets off Balance in order to keep the momentum going. But Hiter did not have this strategic Reserve needed for the follow up Attacks. They might have been able to eliminate all the russian forces in the salient, but the Red Army reserve armies behind the front destined to carry out the successvice Russian blows would simply plow through the German armies still. Although this time The Germans would have had smaller losses probably due to the fact that they now had control of the grounds around kursk and would be in a better state of organisation since they actually won the battle. But like Lkefct said, there are too many what if's in this. This would also rely on the russians make several mistakes, bad tactical moves and poor tactics on the battle field. Also, the biggest factor would be IF the Russians would not send their reserves into the battle, this would allow the Germans to gather their strengh and maybe attack further.

Viking

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What if Germany won at Kursk?

Kursk .