Peiper turns north, impact on battle of the bulge?

[AKahl]

I've read other critiques of Peiper's tactics here, on this forum, and well-reasoned and well-earned critiques, I'd say. But one of the harshest indictments was that Peiper did not ensure the survival and preservation of his command, losing virtually all of his vehicles, and a significant percentage of his manpower. So the import of that, at least to me, was that he should have been more measured, and not acted as if in a vacuum, but rather in concert with other elements of 6th Panzer Army. So maybe that makes him not Peiper, I'll grant you that, but to me that's the suspension of disbelief required for these kinds of 'what if' scenarios.

Well, yet another problem with focusing on what he could have done is that it tends to ignore just how bad his performance actually was. Frankly, the Peiper Mystique simply doesn't stand up to examination. He appears to have been a barely competent infantry battalion commander, but was pretty much a disaster as a regimental-size KG commander.

That seems to be the consensus, from talking to you and Harro and others.

When I was 10 or 11 and reading John Toland's book on the Battle of the Bulge in grade school, that was less well demonstrated. You guys have done a good job of contrasting his abilities with others who, among other things, maybe better understood the limitations of tanks.

[Ружичасти Слон]

I'm reluctant to wade in here, but I do find this to be an interesting "what if", but I'm taken by the negative tone of some of the responses, thus far. It goes without saying that I think that nothing the Germans did, given the resources available, would have changed their overall situation. From my perspective, given that a typical Allied infantry division was fully motorized and had a numerical tank strength equal to or better of most of even the "rebuilt" German panzer divisions, they were never going to get to Antwerp. To even get across the Meuse in strength would have been an amazing (and probably imprudent) achievement.

Discuss on what was can happen on Pieper was decide go north after Bullingen can to be interesting discuss.

But stg44 was not discuss that. Was not want for to discuss that.

Stg44 was decide what must to happen after Pieper was decide go north after Bullingen. Stg44 was decide all amerikans was must be destroyed until Meuse.

Stg44 was want peoples for to discuss what can to happen after all sspzcorps1 was be on Meuse but he was not explain what can to be fighting condition on sspzcorps1 when was arrive on Meuse.

[Ружичасти Слон]

James R. Arnold (in Ardennes 1944) stated:

"From Bucholz Station, near where the American armored car spotted him, Peiper trailed behind an American column as it retreated westward. His high fuel consumption in the previous day's traffic jams forced Peiper to divert north to a fuel dump at Bullingen. At this point Peiper faced a choice. He could continue west to the Meuse or turn to cut off the 2nd and 99th Infantry Divisions on the Elsenborn Ridge. These divisions had only a single, narrow, muddy farm track by which to retreat. No defenders stood between Peiper and this escape route - conceivably he could cut off some 30,000 men. The 99th's commander realized the situation: Peiper 'had the key to success within his hands but did not know it'.

Instead Peiper has to have some divine knowledge granting him this "key to success".

BTW, that "single, narrow, muddy farm track" was the one that was actually used by most of the 2d and 99th Inf Div to escape on. And, as we have seen, contrary to what Arnold apparently believed, Peiper's route to "this escape route" was defended.

Divine knowledge was not be everything Pieper must to have. He was must to have amerikan commanders who surrender immediate.

Bergstrom and Arnold and stg44 words only make change on outcome on Wacht am rhein when all sspzcorps1 was arrive on Meuse on perfect condition like invincible super warriors. Or amerikan army was just surrender when was capture Wirtzfeld.

Can it to be realistic historical for to think amerikan 2. and 99. divisions will stop fighting when Wirtzfeld was be capture ? And everybody else on area was be complete tosh and surrender ?

[Carl Schwamberger]

I've read other critiques of Peiper's tactics here, on this forum, and well-reasoned and well-earned critiques, I'd say. But one of the harshest indictments was that Peiper did not ensure the survival and preservation of his command, losing virtually all of his vehicles, and a significant percentage of his manpower. So the import of that, at least to me, was that he should have been more measured, and not acted as if in a vacuum, but rather in concert with other elements of 6th Panzer Army. So maybe that makes him not Peiper, I'll grant you that, but to me that's the suspension of disbelief required for these kinds of 'what if' scenarios.

Well, yet another problem with focusing on what he could have done is that it tends to ignore just how bad his performance actually was. Frankly, the Peiper Mystique simply doesn't stand up to examination. He appears to have been a barely competent infantry battalion commander, but was pretty much a disaster as a regimental-size KG commander.

Did Peiper, or his units have any previous experience fighting the US or Commonwealth armies? Both had large differences in how they fought from the Red Amy. He made his reputation in the east. Those differences may have thrown his game far off vs a unfamiliar opponent. Another problem may have been the unfamiliar steep hills & deep meanders that were the Ardennes. Not the same as the eastern steppes and forests. Would not be the first time a commander, staff, or soldiers were flummoxed by unfamiliar circumstances.

[Richard Anderson]

Did Peiper, or his units have any previous experience fighting the US or Commonwealth armies?

Sure, in Normandy.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Anything to brag about there?

[Richard Anderson]

Anything to brag about there?

Sure. LÜTTICH.

[Kingfish]

Anything to brag about there?

Sure. LÜTTICH.

You laugh, but had Peiper turned north instead of west he would have destroyed both US 1st and 3rd army and captured Cherbourg before the end of the day.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Piper is so seldom mentioned in the Normandy battle histories is role is way below the radar, down at the bug level in the weeds.

[Cult Icon]

Piper is so seldom mentioned in the Normandy battle histories is role is way below the radar, down at the bug level in the weeds.

Obviously because you focus on Allied centric books while being a mod on AHF. :roll: LAH is covered in a lot of detail in the German ones.

Peiper was one of dozens of Pz KG commanders with the RK and not a special figure in the Eastern Front as he did the same thing as the others. His unit, the big and well equipped LAH was more special than he was. Actually the LAH / Peiper's role in normandy is known. LAH was involved in largely positional warfare and was a sitting duck. Highlights were the fighting at Tilly and the defense of Operation Goodwood in which the Panther battalion saw a lot of action. IIRC He was a psychiatric casualty. He was a casualty in Russia. He was hyped up inappropriately by historians after WW2.

KG Peiper was legitimately a good fighting unit in the Soviet Union particularly in Nov 43- Feb 44. After the Ardennes it was rebuilt and used again- successful in a major bridgehead clearing operation. It folded like the other german units in Spring Awakening.

[Cult Icon]

Shouldn't the OP address- rather equally- the other German units related the 1.SS as they were halted in the fighting for the twin villages. Basically they would have needed a different battle plan to overcome that defense.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Piper is so seldom mentioned in the Normandy battle histories is role is way below the radar, down at the bug level in the weeds.

Obviously because you focus on Allied centric books while being a mod on AHF. :roll: LAH is covered in a lot of detail in the German ones.

Can't rember refrences to him in in the context of Normandy in either history of the SS I read. Don't recall his name in 'The Germans in Normandy'.

[Westphalia1812]

KG Peiper was legitimately a good fighting unit in the Soviet Union particularly in Nov 43- Feb 44.

How did the LAH perform during the Zhitomir fighting? According to Retribution by Prit Buttar the division performed satisfactorily. But what are your thoughts? You seem to know a lot about the battles in the Ukraine 1943/44 so I'm eager to learn your opinion.