What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 04 Dec 2020 21:44

Terry Duncan wrote:
04 Dec 2020 17:24
Futurist wrote:
04 Dec 2020 03:43
When did the Algerians defeat the Ottomans?
Was this difficult to type into Google or any other search engine to find an answer? Seriously, sometimes it is possible to find answers to simple questions in seconds.
I did:

https://www.google.com/search?q=algeria ... e&ie=UTF-8

I couldn't find anything about the Algerians defeating the Ottomans. I did know for years that the French defeated the Ottomans in Algeria in 1830, but that's a separate question to what I asked about here.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 04 Dec 2020 22:07

True, in this case, you were innocent. But frequently your single line questions are of the google it, **** variety.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 04 Dec 2020 22:14

Sheldrake wrote:
04 Dec 2020 19:30
The allied leadership downplayed the Jewish dimension to the war. There was a streak of antisemitism in American and British popular opinion. Neither country's leaders wanted to create the impression that they were fighting for the Jews, which was the propaganda line that the Nazis played.
The censorship of Nazi atrocities was real, the Allies believed (correctly) that such news or atrocity propaganda based on them would harm their war efforts.
But the reason nothing was done about Nazi atrocities was simple - nothing could have been done, not because the Americans or the British were anti-semites.
It wasn't like the Soviets did something when Hitler starved to death millions of their citizens.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 05 Dec 2020 08:48

wm wrote:
04 Dec 2020 22:07
True, in this case, you were innocent. But frequently your single line questions are of the google it, **** variety.
Fair enough; I should be more careful from now on. Anyway, though, what did you mean with your Algerian comment? That the Algerians saw how easy it was for the French to kick the Turks out of Algeria?

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 05 Dec 2020 08:53

wm wrote:
04 Dec 2020 22:14
Sheldrake wrote:
04 Dec 2020 19:30
The allied leadership downplayed the Jewish dimension to the war. There was a streak of antisemitism in American and British popular opinion. Neither country's leaders wanted to create the impression that they were fighting for the Jews, which was the propaganda line that the Nazis played.
The censorship of Nazi atrocities was real, the Allies believed (correctly) that such news or atrocity propaganda based on them would harm their war efforts.
But the reason nothing was done about Nazi atrocities was simple - nothing could have been done, not because the Americans or the British were anti-semites.
How interesting--one US complaint about the idea of bombing Auschwitz was that it would enable the Nazis to blame the Western Allies for the deaths of the Jews there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz ... _reactions
It wasn't like the Soviets did something when Hitler starved to death millions of their citizens.
They continued fighting and killing Nazis on the battlefield.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 05 Dec 2020 10:00

A successful bombing of gas chambers was possible but it wouldn't change much (when it was possible the Holocaust was basically completed.)

The preoccupied with the reconquest of Palestine Jewish leaders (in 1944 Jewish groups waged terrorist war against the British in Palestine) weren't up to the task anyway, and never provide the required leadership for such actions.
One of them (Yitzhak Gruenbaum) famously said one cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland, so there...

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 06 Dec 2020 01:13

wm wrote:
05 Dec 2020 10:00
A successful bombing of gas chambers was possible but it wouldn't change much (when it was possible the Holocaust was basically completed.)

The preoccupied with the reconquest of Palestine Jewish leaders (in 1944 Jewish groups waged terrorist war against the British in Palestine) weren't up to the task anyway, and never provide the required leadership for such actions.
One of them (Yitzhak Gruenbaum) famously said one cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland, so there...
Almost half a million Hungarian Jews were murdered between May and July 1944 and almost 70,000 Lodz Jews were murdered in August 1944, so there were still some Jewish lives to be saved even in the late stages of the war and Holocaust.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 06 Dec 2020 01:55

Jewish leaders, John Pehle, the World Jewish Congress only intervened at the end of June, a week before the Hungarians stopped the deportations.
It didn't matter because American strategic bombers were incapable of attacking such small targets like gas chambers, and the Allies were fully committed to d-Day in France anyway.
But the Soviets who stood 100+ miles from Auschwitz for many months could - using their attack planes, for them, it would be a piece of cake.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 06 Dec 2020 04:49

What would it have taken on the West's part to successfully bribe Stalin into bombing Auschwitz in 1944?

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 06 Dec 2020 13:11

I think there was no need for any bribes. He would do it because really why not - even if we disregard the propaganda value of it for the Soviets.
It would be a small scale, tactical level operation - one of the tens if not hundreds the Soviets conducted every day.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 08 Dec 2020 08:03

So, the only reason that Stalin didn't do this is because the Western Allies never actually asked him to? :(

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 08 Dec 2020 10:04

The Allies had nothing to do with it, they didn't even know, and anyway decided early on that such actions would not be attempted.
It was the job of Jewish leaders to convince them otherwise.
And it shouldn't have been just "Hi Joseph bomb this or that for us," the dirty work of gathering information, planning the operation had to be done first and the result delivered to the Soviets as quickly as possible.

The gas chambers were part of a huge concentration camp, the camp part of one of the largest (and presumably well defended) industrial regions in Europe.
Lots of reconnaissance on the ground was needed to ensure that the prisoners or the attacking force wouldn't be massacred as result.

On request of resistance leaders, such attacks were conducted (e.g., the Oslo Mosquito raid, Operation Carthage) but they did their work first and were able to demonstrate they were possible.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 08 Jan 2021 07:20

Question--just how many additional people (as in, the maximum) was the Jewish Autonomous Oblast actually capable of supporting in the late 1930s and early 1940s?

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by wm » 08 Jan 2021 09:40

It was larger than Belgium but not food sufficient. So nobody or tens of millions if we have food for them.

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Re: What effect would having Stalin deport the Soviet Union's Jews to the JAO en masse have on Anglo-American support?

Post by Futurist » 11 Jan 2021 08:21

wm wrote:
08 Jan 2021 09:40
It was larger than Belgium but not food sufficient. So nobody or tens of millions if we have food for them.
Well, just how much food could the Soviet Union deliver to there on a regular basis? For just how many people?

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