Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

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maltesefalcon
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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by maltesefalcon » 04 Feb 2021 18:00

Russ3Z wrote:
04 Feb 2021 14:00
maltesefalcon wrote:
04 Feb 2021 01:13
Germany simply did not have a reliable source of the alloying elements sufficient for supplying high-temp alloy engine internals. So German jet engines of the period had very poor reliability. Unless Germany could sort that issue out, jet aircraft would never live up to their potential.
Was this true in 1942, when the Germans still controlled larger portions of Russia and therefore more mining areas? I don't know if said areas contained the ores needed for such elements, or if the mines were intact and shipping to Germany if so, but it does seem to make the question of earlier jet deployment, if possible, a bit more interesting.
High temp alloys require all or some of the following ingredients:

Nickel, manganese, cobalt, tungsten and chromium. Some were for high heat hardness retention and some for anti corrosion. They were all at a premium in the Reich. Bear in mind that at least some of these materials were still needed for other purposes.

If you take into account that jet engine development was undertaken somewhat before Barbarossa even began, perhaps the research into these materials was still in progress by the time they lost the access?

I have practical experience in the machining/manufacturing sector in cutting tools and related processes. Many of my customers make turbine blades. Even with modern materials and CNC equipment the scrap rate is pretty high. The slightest flaw will cause premature and catastrophic failure.

Germany had to make do with what they could bring to the table and engine reliability suffered as a result. At least the Me-262 had two engines, in case one failed. Single engine design was a crap shoot. But by the time the He-162 was being considered it was a desperation weapon. They were going to use poorly trained (i.e. expendable) Hitler youth as pilots, indicating how low their fortunes had sunk by then.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Feb 2021 18:16

Cantankerous wrote:
04 Feb 2021 17:18
The He 280 and Me 262 had the turbojets slung under the wings, which was somehow a problem because it made plane a bit too heavy to fly faster than 530 miles per hour. Heinkel simply could have simply used the jet engine layout developed for the He 178 in a future jet fighter made from wood and fitted it with a more powerful version of the HeS 8, like the HeS 30, along with air intakes for the turbojet in the wing roots.
The Germans have a number of problems with jet engines in 1942 that they mostly resolved by 1944, but not entirely.

I'll start with how they were podded on the wings. This was done to avoid complex design of the intakes which would be necessary if you wanted smooth air flow from the inlet to the engine. Longer intake ducts were already known to cause a loss of engine performance so they were usually avoided in early jets. Putting the engines in nacelles on the wings was a quick way to get a minimal intake duct length and allowed for the possibility that one of several engines might end up on the plane.
Early jets usually needed a pair of engines in any case to produce enough thrust to carry the weight of the plane and a much larger quantity of fuel necessary for those thirsty engines to produce a viable range. This was an issue for the relatively small He 280 for example.

The problem with German turbojets in 1942 was none of the manufacturers had much experience with designing the compressor section. They all had issues with blade profiles, what sort of compressor was best, and so on. For the Germans, they were in a poorer state designing turbines than the US or Britain. Both of the later had large companies that specialized in steam turbine designs for ships that Germany really lacked. Yes, the Germans did build ship steam turbines but their industry was much more limited than companies like Vickers, GE, Westinghouse, and the like. This is why BMW turned to Brown Boveri in Switzerland for help. Brown was one of the largest steam turbine engineering firms in Europe--and they were accessable.
GE had the advantage they had been designing gas turbines in the form of turbochargers for almost two decades and had a huge library of blade profile designs available that would work for turbojets.

You see the Germans do the same sorts of experimentation the British and US did with gas turbines. Von Ohain at Henkel settled on a mixed design using a centrifugal compressor and one or more axial compressors for his engine. Counterrotating compressor stages were tried (they failed everywhere though). Griffith at Vickers (MetroVic) and then RR came up early with the idea that the blade profiles had to resemble wings and not be flat or simply curved. Stanford Moss at GE knew this from experimentation with turbochargers. BMW and Junkers went with axial designs. MetroVic went with an axial design while DeHaviland and RR were building centrifugal engines based on Whittle's designs.
The US went straight to axials while producing a centrifugal and improving it in the interim.

Thus, the overall situation was the Allies were in a better position to make more rapid development in jet engines than the Germans, particularly the US who could throw cubic dollars at the problem. The Germans first had to design an engine that would work at all. As noted, the BMW 003 ran on the bench fine in 1942. It didn't run fine on an airplane in a dynamic flight environment. That took BMW two more years of work to resolve. The Germans had the additional problem of lacking the resources to apply high temperature metals freely in their engine designs.

So, in 1942 the Germans simply don't have a jet engine they can put into production. The British do, but they dithered around for nearly a year and a half before finalizing production. The US had a "Duh!" moment seeing the Whittle engine but lost no time in putting it into production and getting into designing their own. It would be nearly two years for them to get mass production started though. That's a pretty short time to go from zero to turning out product in quantity.

In the 1940's nobody was going to get a jet that would exceed about 650 mph in flight in any case simply due to the lack of design knowledge on supersonic and even transonic aircraft. If you could get a jet into the high 500 mph range, you were golden up through about 1947. From there to the 50's breaking 600 mph was sufficient.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Feb 2021 18:45

maltesefalcon wrote:
04 Feb 2021 18:00
Russ3Z wrote:
04 Feb 2021 14:00
maltesefalcon wrote:
04 Feb 2021 01:13
Germany simply did not have a reliable source of the alloying elements sufficient for supplying high-temp alloy engine internals. So German jet engines of the period had very poor reliability. Unless Germany could sort that issue out, jet aircraft would never live up to their potential.
Was this true in 1942, when the Germans still controlled larger portions of Russia and therefore more mining areas? I don't know if said areas contained the ores needed for such elements, or if the mines were intact and shipping to Germany if so, but it does seem to make the question of earlier jet deployment, if possible, a bit more interesting.
High temp alloys require all or some of the following ingredients:

Nickel, manganese, cobalt, tungsten and chromium. Some were for high heat hardness retention and some for anti corrosion. They were all at a premium in the Reich. Bear in mind that at least some of these materials were still needed for other purposes.

If you take into account that jet engine development was undertaken somewhat before Barbarossa even began, perhaps the research into these materials was still in progress by the time they lost the access?

I have practical experience in the machining/manufacturing sector in cutting tools and related processes. Many of my customers make turbine blades. Even with modern materials and CNC equipment the scrap rate is pretty high. The slightest flaw will cause premature and catastrophic failure.

Germany had to make do with what they could bring to the table and engine reliability suffered as a result. At least the Me-262 had two engines, in case one failed. Single engine design was a crap shoot. But by the time the He-162 was being considered it was a desperation weapon. They were going to use poorly trained (i.e. expendable) Hitler youth as pilots, indicating how low their fortunes had sunk by then.
Except, the high temperature metals issue is minor compared to the issues with compressor, turbine, and inlet design that everybody was having at the time. In 1942 the BMW 003 failed not because of materials but because of poor engineering in the compressor design and its coupling to the turbine. This is the same problem Junkers is having getting the 004 to run. It's the same issue at Henkel and Daimler-Benz with their engine designs. DB gave up the issue was so complex.

The best materials won't make the engine run, they make it more reliable. You have to get the engine to run first...

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 06 Feb 2021 04:27

So, it looks like these can be built from 1942, but a lot more pilots are killed by mechanical failure?
Last edited by Carl Schwamberger on 06 Feb 2021 17:41, edited 1 time in total.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by T. A. Gardner » 06 Feb 2021 17:36

I suppose if the HeS 7 or 8 engine (RLM 109-001) with around 1100 lbs. thrust was working better and didn't leak fuel like a sieve, it would be possible to get something like the He 162 in mid to late 1943 that could top out in speed around 500 mph or maybe just a bit better. At least Von Ohain's engine worked. What it needed was technical clean up of things like the fuel leak issues. Von Ohain had solved the compressor issues on his engine (a centrifugal like Whittle's), using single stage axial fan ahead of the compressor to smooth out air flow and give a slight boost to inlet pressure.

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Feb 2021 13:17

Hi Guys,

What-ifs only have some value on a history site if they were a practicable possibility.

The Me262 might have been introduced slightly earlier, and this is worth debating as a practicable possibility

However, the idea of the He162 being introduced three years earlier, before there was either a requirement or the proven technology to support it, is more in the realms of fantasy.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by maltesefalcon » 07 Feb 2021 15:12

Sid Guttridge wrote:
07 Feb 2021 13:17
Hi Guys,

What-ifs only have some value on a history site if they were a practicable possibility.

The Me262 might have been introduced slightly earlier, and this is worth debating as a practicable possibility

However, the idea of the He162 being introduced three years earlier, before there was either a requirement or the proven technology to support it, is more in the realms of fantasy.

Cheers,

Sid.
Right on the money. I've noticed that in some cases, there seems to be a direct relationship between how whimsical an ATL is and the great lengths to which the OP will go to try to make it make sense...

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by T. A. Gardner » 08 Feb 2021 01:51

Sid Guttridge wrote:
07 Feb 2021 13:17
Hi Guys,

What-ifs only have some value on a history site if they were a practicable possibility.

The Me262 might have been introduced slightly earlier, and this is worth debating as a practicable possibility

However, the idea of the He162 being introduced three years earlier, before there was either a requirement or the proven technology to support it, is more in the realms of fantasy.

Cheers,

Sid.
Well Sid in this case, there is some very slight possibility something like the He 162 might have been developed by about early 1943 or so using the HeS 7 or 8 engine. This engine flew on the He 280 in late 1942 but was abandoned in development for the HeS 11 (RLM 109-011) or Henkel 011 engine on two grounds: First the engine was producing about 500 to 600 kg of thrust, considerably less than the BMW 003 or Jumo 004 would offer. Second, it had an issue of leaking fuel everywhere.

If the second were focused on and fixed, you have a reliable jet engine you could use on a lightweight fighter that might get you about 500 mph give or take. That would get you something a bit better than an Me 109, but it wouldn't be a heavily armed bomber buster rather a short range interceptor with a couple of 20mm cannon and a limited ammunition supply.

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 26 Nov 2021 09:55

Thumpalumpacus wrote:
04 Feb 2021 05:31
Do-335: Proven technology with superior performance compared to anything the Wallies had. If you're going for anything in 1942, that's the bet, I'd say.

It too came too late, as things unfolded.
Going to nitpick a bit with this post.

The 335 was a speedy aircraft with one heck of a punch in the form of 1 30mm and 2 20mm cannons, it could also carry bombs and generally was a powerful plane.

But it was not what Germany needed.

The plane used 2 603 engines, the largest most expensive engines Germany had on hand, was basically as maneuverable as a flying brick, and the thing was absolutely massive.

Germany needed as many planes as they could get in the air, as economically as possible. Hence the push for the 162. One engine is cheaper than 2, and jets are cheaper than piston engines (both in fueling them and in building them).

In 1942 not even the Germans had jets reliably of course, so the only logical conclusion is a single engine piston plane made as cheaply as possible while keeping good characteristics.

In this regard the 109 is pretty spot on, the thing was made in comically huge numbers and it was never considered to be a 'bad' plane, the issue is that America could build a dozen 38s 51's and 47's for every plane you made. Hard to fight that level of disparity, not even including the comical amount of bombers they threw at Germany.

I'd personally try giving the 109 to Kurt Tank to fiddle with, ending up with some standardized 109/190 hybrid which could use the 605 or 801/802 engines as needed. Germany REALLY was on the right track with their 'power egg' units.

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by PunctuationHorror » 26 Nov 2021 14:57

I always wondered why they did not use the airframe of the 109 or 190 and 'just' replaced the piston with a jet engine. It seems to me that Soviets used this approach with Jak 15.

Or maybe add an extra jet engine beneath the fuselage. Piston for reliability, jet for more speed. Even a solid fueled rocket booster could bring advantages for an interceptor. Perhaps.

Or try the piston + added jet(s) approach to speed up Ju 88, 188, maybe even He 111, He 177.

Or why they did not try a similar design like the He 162 with two jets, one beneath each wing root close to the fuselage..

Or move the engine of the He 162 from back down to its belly to yield a design that goes back to the track of the He 176 and towards a Mig 15.

Mr. Gardener hinted that implementing the jet engine into the fuselage would give probably insolvable problems with airflow, which would prevent such a design.

My wisdom of aircraft is very limited - so maybe you can excuse my foolish ideas.

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by Sheldrake » 26 Nov 2021 15:21

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 Feb 2021 08:23
How are the Nazis going to "deploy" something in 1942 that did nor make its maiden flight until December 1944?

Cheers,

Sid
Its the same with many technology based what iffs - an excuse to allow the coutcome to change. What of Napoleon had a tank mregiment at Waterloo.

\But if we assume that jet engine technology was available three years earlier, that technology would be available for both sides. So the RAF would have the DH Vampire, a far superior design to the He162 with the US on its heels with the F86.

None of the early generation jets had much range, so the 8th AF daylight raids might be as fatal as the unescorted raids in the Battle of Britain.

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by Hoover » 29 Nov 2021 01:44

\But if we assume that jet engine technology was available three years earlier, that technology would be available for both sides. So the RAF would have the DH Vampire, a far superior design to the He162 with the US on its heels with the F86.
Not F86, the P80 would be flying over Germany in masses. The F86 would not have been built without the Me P.1011.

The He 162 was not the big apple for air war. Difficult to fly, and not sufficient resources for training the pilots properly.

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by Sheldrake » 29 Nov 2021 10:07

Hoover wrote:
29 Nov 2021 01:44
\But if we assume that jet engine technology was available three years earlier, that technology would be available for both sides. So the RAF would have the DH Vampire, a far superior design to the He162 with the US on its heels with the F86.
Not F86, the P80 would be flying over Germany in masses. The F86 would not have been built without the Me P.1011.

The He 162 was not the big apple for air war. Difficult to fly, and not sufficient resources for training the pilots properly.
Who says? In my alternative time line American and British engineers were able to study the swept wing of an Me262 flown by a test pilot defecting with a set of test data...

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by Takao » 29 Nov 2021 16:24

Amusing at best, farcical at worst. Seems that no one has thought to look at why the He-162 was selected or why the Germans initiated the design in the first place.

The design specifications for the He-162 were issued because the Luftwaffe was well on it's way to being destroyed, and also because the German factories were rapidly being turned into rubble.

Thus for the He-162 to have been initiated in 1942 - The Luftwaffe was already mostly destroyed and Germany's factories were already rapidly being turned into rubble. Hence, the Allies are materially stronger than Germany in 1942, then they were historically in 1942

Thus, the Germans deploy the He-162 in 1942, and the war ends with a German surrender in 1942.

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Re: Nazis deploy He 162 in 1942 rather than 1944

Post by glenn239 » 30 Nov 2021 20:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 Feb 2021 08:23
How are the Nazis going to "deploy" something in 1942 that did nor make its maiden flight until December 1944?

Cheers,

Sid
They can't. It's basically a thought exercise on the impact of cheap jets on Allied daylight mass bombing strategy.

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