Hitler decides not to intercede in North Africa

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Cantankerous
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Hitler decides not to intercede in North Africa

Post by Cantankerous » 13 Feb 2021 16:30

What if Adolf Hitler had chosen not to send forces to North Africa to fight the Allies in North Africa? Mussolini always dreamed of recreating the Roman Empire, and conquering North Africa all by himself would have constituted a quantum leap in his ambitions for a modern-day Roman Empire, because he agreed with the Roman emperors that the Mediterranean Sea was the domain of the Italian nation. By choosing not to send forces to North Africa for the purposes of cutting off British supply lines in the Mediterranean, Hitler would have wisely freed up financial resources slated for an invasion of North Africa to prolong the war on the Eastern Front or attack Manhattan.

Hi

Ive changed the title of your WI.

Its a very weak WI and frankly unless something miraculous happens it'll soon be locked.

Regards

Andy H
Last edited by Cantankerous on 13 Feb 2021 21:32, edited 1 time in total.

Peter89
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Peter89 » 13 Feb 2021 16:35

I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that AH did not invade North Africa.

Attack Manhattan? Excuse me? :roll:
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Cantankerous
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Cantankerous » 13 Feb 2021 16:47

Peter89 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:35
I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that AH did not invade North Africa.

Attack Manhattan? Excuse me? :roll:
Lest you forget, Italy waged an offensive against British forces in northern Egypt in September 1940 and won that battle. I meant to weigh in on what the course of World War II in North Africa would have been like if Hitler had decided not to send in any troops or other forces to North Africa and instead gave Mussolini permission to invade the region all by himself, because the Italian invasion of Egypt in 1940 was tailored by Mussolini to expand his country's colonial footprint in North Africa in hopes of recreating the Roman Empire.

Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Egypt

Richard Anderson
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Richard Anderson » 13 Feb 2021 17:06

Cantankerous wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:47
Peter89 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:35
I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that AH did not invade North Africa.

Attack Manhattan? Excuse me? :roll:
Lest you forget, Italy waged an offensive against British forces in northern Egypt in September 1940 and won that battle.
There is nothing for anyone to "remember" given that is not what happened.
I meant to weigh in on what the course of World War II in North Africa would have been like if Hitler had decided not to send in any troops or other forces to North Africa and instead gave Mussolini permission to invade the region all by himself, because the Italian invasion of Egypt in 1940 was tailored by Mussolini to expand his country's colonial footprint in North Africa in hopes of recreating the Roman Empire.
Why does Mussolini require "permission" from Hitler to do something he's already done?
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Cantankerous
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Cantankerous » 13 Feb 2021 17:20

Richard Anderson wrote:
13 Feb 2021 17:06
Cantankerous wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:47
Peter89 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:35
I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that AH did not invade North Africa.

Attack Manhattan? Excuse me? :roll:
Lest you forget, Italy waged an offensive against British forces in northern Egypt in September 1940 and won that battle.
There is nothing for anyone to "remember" given that is not what happened.
I meant to weigh in on what the course of World War II in North Africa would have been like if Hitler had decided not to send in any troops or other forces to North Africa and instead gave Mussolini permission to invade the region all by himself, because the Italian invasion of Egypt in 1940 was tailored by Mussolini to expand his country's colonial footprint in North Africa in hopes of recreating the Roman Empire.
Why does Mussolini require "permission" from Hitler to do something he's already done?
Since Mussolini was planning to recreate the Roman Empire, he could have asked Italian government officials notify Hitler's government to ask him not to send in German forces to North Africa to fight any Allied campaign there.

Aber
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Aber » 13 Feb 2021 17:21

Cantankerous wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:47
Lest you forget, Italy waged an offensive against British forces in northern Egypt in September 1940 and won that battle.

Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Egypt
I suggest you read the link in the Aftermath section:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass

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Aida1
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Aida1 » 13 Feb 2021 17:30

Peter89 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:35
I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that AH did not invade North Africa.

Attack Manhattan? Excuse me? :roll:
He forgot that the italians were thrashed by the british and needed to be saved. :lol:

Rob Stuart
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Rob Stuart » 13 Feb 2021 17:39

Cantankerous wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:47
Peter89 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:35
I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that AH did not invade North Africa.

Attack Manhattan? Excuse me? :roll:
Lest you forget, Italy waged an offensive against British forces in northern Egypt in September 1940 and won that battle.
Wrong. The British forces were not defeated. They chose to conduct a fighting withdrawal to about 60 miles east of the Libya-Egypt border, inflicting far more casualties on the Italians they they sustained. The British/Commonwealth/Empire forces remained intact and in December launched a counter-offensive, Operation Compass, which decimated the Italian 10th Army and threatened to take all of Libya. Hitler sent the Afrika Korps to North Africa to help him retain Libya, not to horn in on an Italian conquest of all of North Africa.

Peter89
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Peter89 » 13 Feb 2021 17:52

Cantankerous wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:47
Peter89 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 16:35
I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that AH did not invade North Africa.

Attack Manhattan? Excuse me? :roll:
Lest you forget, Italy waged an offensive against British forces in northern Egypt in September 1940 and won that battle. I meant to weigh in on what the course of World War II in North Africa would have been like if Hitler had decided not to send in any troops or other forces to North Africa and instead gave Mussolini permission to invade the region all by himself, because the Italian invasion of Egypt in 1940 was tailored by Mussolini to expand his country's colonial footprint in North Africa in hopes of recreating the Roman Empire.

Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Egypt
:lol:
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Richard Anderson
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Re: Hitler decides not to invade North Africa

Post by Richard Anderson » 13 Feb 2021 18:12

Cantankerous wrote:
13 Feb 2021 17:20
Since Mussolini was planning to recreate the Roman Empire, he could have asked Italian government officials notify Hitler's government to ask him not to send in German forces to North Africa to fight any Allied campaign there.
You are confused about how things worked. Mussolini requested German assistance. See Weisung Nr. 21.

"The situation in the Mediterranean, in which England is using superior forces against our allies, requires German aid for strategic, political and psychological reasons."
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Hitler decides not to intercede in North Africa

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 13 Feb 2021 18:22

Attempting to answer the OP.

Eventually the Brits accuse enough strength in western Cyrinacpa to move on into Lybia and secure Tripli & the entire former Italian littoral. Since the OP does not exclude the combined Axis Balkans campaign we might assume all that falls out as historically & the Axis end up controlling Crete. Undistracted by a series of battles or campaign in Cyrinacpa the Brits can reinforce the campaign to secure the East African Horn & Ethiopian interior. After that ??

History Learner
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Re: Hitler decides not to intercede in North Africa

Post by History Learner » 16 Feb 2021 22:27

Image

To put this into perspective, this is IIRC about 10% of the operation German truck fleet and more trucks/heavy lifters than 12th had in the Balkans. Available for duty in the East, it's probably decisive for Operation Barbarossa, in that it either makes a Kiev diversion unneeded or allows for Army Group North to take Leningrad in August.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Hitler decides not to intercede in North Africa

Post by Richard Anderson » 16 Feb 2021 23:09

History Learner wrote:
16 Feb 2021 22:27
Image

To put this into perspective, this is IIRC about 10% of the operation German truck fleet and more trucks/heavy lifters than 12th had in the Balkans. Available for duty in the East, it's probably decisive for Operation Barbarossa, in that it either makes a Kiev diversion unneeded or allows for Army Group North to take Leningrad in August.
Sorry, but that is near fantasy...what is it taken from? What time period is it supposed to represent?

As initially deployed, DAK consisted of Aufklärungsstab Rommel with 5. leichte Afrika-Division. The entire mobile force at Rommel's disposal in March 1941 was about 55,000 Germans and Italians. By the time 15. Panzer-Division joined in May 1941, the German-Italian forces had increased to 74,000 men, with effectively 168 "medium tanks" (M39/40, Pz III, and Pz IV), and 60 "light tanks". There were no "flame tanks" (the first of those appeared in Italy in fall 1943) and no "assault guns" (the first of those appeared in Africa in mid-1942). There were 140 field guns and howitzers (75mm and larger), 228 AT guns of all types, 172 AA guns of all types, and 148 other field guns and howitzers (smaller than 75mm). To make this force mobile, the Italians had purchased large numbers of motor vehicles from French North Africa and had impressed even more from the Italian civil population in Tripoli. Peak German strength in Africa was actually August 1942, when 56,643 were recorded.

As late as 20 October 1942, at Alamein, the Deutsche-Italianisches Pazner-Armee with four German and eight Italian divisions, reached a peak strength of 46,853 Germans and about 54,000 Italians. At that point, the motor vehicle strength totaled

German:
986 motorcycles
2,827 PKW
8,071 LKW
286 ZgKw

Italian:
1,200 motorcycles
2,100 trucks of all types
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

History Learner
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Re: Hitler decides not to intercede in North Africa

Post by History Learner » 17 Feb 2021 00:10

Richard Anderson wrote:
16 Feb 2021 23:09
History Learner wrote:
16 Feb 2021 22:27
Image

To put this into perspective, this is IIRC about 10% of the operation German truck fleet and more trucks/heavy lifters than 12th had in the Balkans. Available for duty in the East, it's probably decisive for Operation Barbarossa, in that it either makes a Kiev diversion unneeded or allows for Army Group North to take Leningrad in August.
Sorry, but that is near fantasy...what is it taken from? What time period is it supposed to represent?

As initially deployed, DAK consisted of Aufklärungsstab Rommel with 5. leichte Afrika-Division. The entire mobile force at Rommel's disposal in March 1941 was about 55,000 Germans and Italians. By the time 15. Panzer-Division joined in May 1941, the German-Italian forces had increased to 74,000 men, with effectively 168 "medium tanks" (M39/40, Pz III, and Pz IV), and 60 "light tanks". There were no "flame tanks" (the first of those appeared in Italy in fall 1943) and no "assault guns" (the first of those appeared in Africa in mid-1942). There were 140 field guns and howitzers (75mm and larger), 228 AT guns of all types, 172 AA guns of all types, and 148 other field guns and howitzers (smaller than 75mm). To make this force mobile, the Italians had purchased large numbers of motor vehicles from French North Africa and had impressed even more from the Italian civil population in Tripoli. Peak German strength in Africa was actually August 1942, when 56,643 were recorded.

As late as 20 October 1942, at Alamein, the Deutsche-Italianisches Pazner-Armee with four German and eight Italian divisions, reached a peak strength of 46,853 Germans and about 54,000 Italians. At that point, the motor vehicle strength totaled

German:
986 motorcycles
2,827 PKW
8,071 LKW
286 ZgKw

Italian:
1,200 motorcycles
2,100 trucks of all types
Nigel Askey's Barbarossa series is the source, so I'm not sure why you consider it fantasy? Case in point is that there were indeed assault guns in North Africa in 1941:
Jon's StuG III Ausf D was shipped to North Africa in 1941 to equip the German Afrika Korps. It was captured by the British near El Alamein in Egypt and put on a ship and sent to England for evaluation and tests. The Army then used it as a target on the Pirbright firing range where it was rescued by Kevin Wheatcroft. It has a serial chassis number of 90678

Richard Anderson
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Re: Hitler decides not to intercede in North Africa

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Feb 2021 02:37

History Learner wrote:
17 Feb 2021 00:10
Nigel Askey's Barbarossa series is the source, so I'm not sure why you consider it fantasy?
I thought it looked like Askey's work. So then, that is supposed to be as effective on or about 22 June 1941, correct? It is a fantasy, because none of the numbers really fit for that time period.

As of June 1941, German personnel in DAK were reported as 33,094. Askey is overstating the strength by 12,000 to 50,000.
As of 20 June 1941, there were 136 German Panzer reported in DAK. Askey is overstating the strength by 184. German Panzer strength in Afrika did not exceed 320 until 1 May 1942, when there were 332, including Beute and probably the 3 StuG III.
As of 5 July 1941, there were 48 German field artillery pieces in DAK. Askey is overstating the strength by an unknown number. By 9 September there were 94 field artillery pieces and 48 coast artillery pieces in Africa. There were no "rail guns" or "rocket guns" in Africa. Nebelwerfer arrived in Tunisia in December 1942.

Calling 5. leichte Afrika-Division a "motorised division with full panzer regiment attached) is also imaginatively inaccurate. It would be more accurate to call it a "reinforced Panzer brigade", since that is what it actually began as. It was 3. Panzer-Brigade of 3. Panzer-Division, reorganized on 15 January 1941 as the Stab/5. leichte Afrika-Division, with 5. Panzer-Regiment and bits and pieces of other organizations tossed in, Aufklärungs-Abteilung (mot.) 3., I./Artillerie-Regiment 75. (mot), both also from 3. Panzer-Division, and others.
Case in point is that there were indeed assault guns in North Africa in 1941:
The three StuG III of SV 288 arrived in the winter of 1941/1942, after the Crusader withdrawal. Again, Askey's data is supposed to be for c. 22 June 1941, not for December 1941/January 1942, which is the earliest the three StuG III of DAK arrived. There is a very slim chance they arrived "in 1941", but 1942 is more likely.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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