The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Post Reply
Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: Naval Battle @ Norway 1940.

#106

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 15 Mar 2021, 16:00

8 April 1940 the RN destroyer Glowworm scouting independently encountered a German battle group. It attacked & was eventually sunk. It did ram the cruiser Admiral Hipper causing some damage. (WTF? You can make this up. A cruiser and several destroyers can't do anything to a enemy ship until it is at boarding range???)

9 April. Three German destroyers demand the surrender of & then torpedoed two Norwegian coastal defense ships, who did not know there was a war on.

First Battle of Narvik 10 April. Four Brit destroyers entered Narvik Fijord undetected in dense fog & snow. They sank two of five German destroyers, disabled a third, and sank/disbled six cargo ships. Light damage to the Brits. Originally the Germans had ten destroyers present, but sent five out on a distant search for the enemy.

The two remaining German destroyers were grounded after running out of fuel and ammunition in the second Battle of Narvik a couple days later. Three German light cruisers were also sunk by British submarines, & the U49 was sunk by destroyers which recovered documents. Tho those were technically not surface actions. However its difficult to separate the British submarine actions since they were coordinated with the fleet actions as per RN doctrine.

8 June the carrier Glorious & two destroyers were sunk by the ugly sisters. The Scharnhorst took a torpedo in that battle, & the Geisnau took a torpedo from a submarine the next day. Both were out of action for several months.

IIRC there were five other German destroyers and a Brit destroyer lost in April, but I can't find anything about those.

The Glowworms action on 8 April was significant. It caused the RN flotilla hovering off the Norwegian coast to be ordered far out into the North Sea to intercept a enemy breakout into the Atlantic. This allowed the lightly escorted Geman invasion flotillas to slip past. Both sides suffered from bad decisions. The Germans gambled on dispersion and took irreplaceable losses in warships. The Brit decision to rush the fleet off to the west left the North Sea coast wide open for the weak invasion force.
Last edited by Carl Schwamberger on 15 Mar 2021, 16:31, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
danebrog
Member
Posts: 397
Joined: 17 Nov 2008, 16:59

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#107

Post by danebrog » 15 Mar 2021, 16:12

Regarding the performance of the German mountain troops at that time, Churchill wrote in his memoirs:
It seemed inconceivable that the germans could advance along this road when the french alpine fighters had not even managed to retreat on skis along this route.
There was no doubt that the entire regiment would have reached Narvik operationally on the pre-tracked route.
In any case, there would have been an established land route, with predetermined camp sites and an already tested air supply. And the summer was just around the corner:
It would not have been difficult for the 2nd Mountain Division to gradually deploy more regiments to the north. The organic artillery would have been brought in by air as in Vaernes a capable Airfield existed
00 Büffel.jpg
Hitler had ordered Göring to make the 7th Air Division available by June 4 to land 2,000 men in the north. Admiral Raeder was willing to commit the Navy to the effort, covering the movement of troops to the Tromsø area 100 miles northeast of Narvik. This would include a sweep by the two battlecruisers. However, by June 8, all Allied troops had been evacuated.

It remains questionable how long the Narvik bridgehead would have lasted: the Kriegsmarine was the driving force behind the invasion of Norway because it wanted the ports as a jumping-off point for its Atlantic operations. This changed only slightly after the fall of France, because the Bay of Biscay could still only be reached via the GIUK gap.
In any case, Allied supply convoys for Narvik would have had to expect increased use of mines, submarines and bombers, while the garrison there was besieged by paratroops and mountain troops.
Given the strategic situation of the Empire at the time, this would have been highly uneconomical.

And it was the sudden and unforseen collapse of the Western Front in May 1940 who led the British government to the evacuation of Narvik: Fears of invasion in Britain drove the decision: One must not forget that the BEF arrived in the UK practically disarmed and the bulk of the expeditionary forces for Norway were badly beaten up
Writing of proposed troop buildups in central Norway, Churchill commented any success"would have been swept away by the results of the fearful battle in France which was now so near. .. Everything we had would havebeen drawn into the struggle for life."


Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#108

Post by Peter89 » 15 Mar 2021, 16:18

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 16:00
First Battle of Narvik 10 April. Four Brit destroyers entered Jarvik Fijord undetected in dense fog & snow. They sank two of five German destroyers, disabled a third, and sank/disbled six cargo ships. Light damage to the Brits. Originally the Germans had ten destroyers present, but sent five out on a distant search for the enemy.

The two remaining destroyers were grounded after running out of fuel and ammunition in the second Battle of Narvik a couple days later. Three German light cruisers were also sunk by British submarines, & the U49 was sunk by destroyers which recovered documents. Tho those were technically not surface actions. However its difficult to separate the British submarine actions since they were coordinated with the fleet actions as per RN doctrine.

8 June the carrier Glorious & two destroyers were sunk by the ugly sisters. The Scharnhorst took a torpedo in that battle, & the Geisnau took a torpedo from a submarine the next day. Both were out of action for several months.
AFAIK during these operations, the Germans did not have complete control of the air. By spring 1941, had a garrison been maintained in Narvik (which would not stop Germans from importing iron from Sweden), the Germans could muster a force both on land, air and sea to push the Brits out of Narvik.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#109

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 15 Mar 2021, 16:46

Peter89 wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 16:18
AFAIK during these operations, the Germans did not have complete control of the air. By spring 1941, had a garrison been maintained in Narvik (which would not stop Germans from importing iron from Sweden), the Germans could muster a force both on land, air and sea to push the Brits out of Narvik.
Majority of these actions took place in unflyable weather, tho the Brit carrier wing did sink a German submarine. Thats one reason why the Germans did not get the Bismarck treatment 11 months early. Air ops from land or carriers were always more miss than hit in getting a patrol or attack into the air in this region. The Brits did dodge away from the coast when enemy bombers started patrolling out of captured air fields, around the 10th I think. At this point the German air crew were handicapped by inadequate training for overwater navigation ad anti ship tactics. Not as bad as in 1939, but there were only a few specialist crews who were at the skill level of FAA or Coastal Command. In any case they were not able to get any air attacks driven home.

One can only speculate on what would have happened had the captain of the Glorious not neutered himself by ceasing air patrols.

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 6349
Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#110

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Mar 2021, 17:26

historygeek2021 wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 03:08
The Poles were under the command of the Polish government in exile, which didn't capitulate after the fall of France but kept fighting with the Allies until the war's conclusion. It's entirely plausible that if Churchill decided to stay in Narvik, the Polish commander-in-chief Sikorski would have agreed and ordered his troops to stay.
The Polish Armed Forces were loyal to the Polish Government in Exile, but they were commanded by, paid by, armed by, organized by, and housed by the French government. Between 10 May and 22 June 1940, Churchill was desperately trying to keep the French in the war as British Allies. Why would he potentially compromise that effort by attempting to strip away 80,000 troops from French command and control? The actual status of forces agreement between Britain and the Polish Government in Exile was not completed until 7 August 1940, although the Polish government and many of the 22,000-odd troops had reached Britain as early as 19 June. How does a weeks long process of negotiation get shortened to overnight?

Furthermore, if Polish loyalties were so fungible, why did the Polish forces in the west not muting after the rescission of the British government's recognition of the Polish Government in Exile in June 1945?
Whatever difficulties the British had in unloading in northern Norwegian ports, it's still better than dropping supplies in by parachute (or carrying them by mule across 150 km of trackless mountain ranges).
Well, they had about 79 flying boats and 43 other transport aircraft operational capable of flying resupply missions, so could fly in some hundreds of tons daily, pretty much at will.
The British had plenty of troops to spare after the fall of France. It had no land commitments anywhere else except North Africa, and Sea Lion was never anything more than a pipe dream.
No, the British had exactly one fully equipped division in Britain after the fall of France. The Germans had well over 100 divisions in France after the fall of France. That the Germans could not easily leap the Channel was not information the British were then privy to and thus was not something they could act upon.
The Allies had numerical superiority, better logistics, naval supremacy and closer airfields. They could have held Narvik but chose to abandon it.
After the withdrawal of the French and Poles and the collapse of the French nation, the "Allies" consisted of Britain. Any local superiority of ground and naval forces they enjoyed around Narvik is meaningless. Yes, they chose to abandon the effort in northern Norway on 24 May, under the not unreasonable assumption that the entire BEF and much of the French Army in the Dunkirk Pocket would be lost. The idea the British would attempt to maintain a tenuous hold on Narvik alone is chimerical.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 6349
Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#111

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Mar 2021, 17:32

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 16:46
Majority of these actions took place in unflyable weather, tho the Brit carrier wing did sink a German submarine. Thats one reason why the Germans did not get the Bismarck treatment 11 months early. Air ops from land or carriers were always more miss than hit in getting a patrol or attack into the air in this region. The Brits did dodge away from the coast when enemy bombers started patrolling out of captured air fields, around the 10th I think. At this point the German air crew were handicapped by inadequate training for overwater navigation ad anti ship tactics. Not as bad as in 1939, but there were only a few specialist crews who were at the skill level of FAA or Coastal Command. In any case they were not able to get any air attacks driven home.
Actually Carl, Luftflotte 5. included virtually all the over-water and anti-ship trained and capable units of the Luftwaffe, including most of the Seefliegerverbänd as well as I. and III./KG 26, KGr 40, and KGr 100.
One can only speculate on what would have happened had the captain of the Glorious not neutered himself by ceasing air patrols.
IIRC the deck park of Gladiators embarked hampered operations on Glorious to such a degree as to render that moot?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#112

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 15 Mar 2021, 18:34

Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 17:32
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 16:46
Majority of these actions took place in unflyable weather, tho the Brit carrier wing did sink a German submarine. Thats one reason why the Germans did not get the Bismarck treatment 11 months early. Air ops from land or carriers were always more miss than hit in getting a patrol or attack into the air in this region. The Brits did dodge away from the coast when enemy bombers started patrolling out of captured air fields, around the 10th I think. At this point the German air crew were handicapped by inadequate training for overwater navigation ad anti ship tactics. Not as bad as in 1939, but there were only a few specialist crews who were at the skill level of FAA or Coastal Command. In any case they were not able to get any air attacks driven home.
Actually Carl, Luftflotte 5. included virtually all the over-water and anti-ship trained and capable units of the Luftwaffe, including most of the Seefliegerverbänd as well as I. and III./KG 26, KGr 40, and KGr 100.
Darn :cry:

Were those the same lot that participated in the Channel Battle & the other anti shipping actions near the UK in the late summer & autumn?
One can only speculate on what would have happened had the captain of the Glorious not neutered himself by ceasing air patrols.
IIRC the deck park of Gladiators embarked hampered operations on Glorious to such a degree as to render that moot?
[/quote]

The default action of the USN in those cases was to push the redundant aircraft overboard. It takes a few minutes. Air ops trump most other considerations, fire fighting and pumping water being a couple of exceptions, & even then it was sometimes a close call. The relevant leaders involved are dead & did not leave much testimony about the decisions onboard the Glorious. What I do know is there was no air cover flown, even a token two or four plane element. That could have allowed evasion. Getting up a airstrike on the sisters is more problematic, but the commander of the Scharnhorst & Geisnau did not know this.

Trivia question: What carrier/s is credited with actually firing on enemy surface ships?

historygeek2021
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 17 Dec 2020, 07:23
Location: Australia

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#113

Post by historygeek2021 » 15 Mar 2021, 19:36

danebrog wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 16:12

There was no doubt that the entire regiment would have reached Narvik operationally on the pre-tracked route.
Three German battalions, hiking 150 km through the mountains, against 12 Allied battalions waiting for them. I'd say the Allies have a shot of winning that one.
Hitler had ordered Göring to make the 7th Air Division available by June 4 to land 2,000 men in the north.
2,000 more Germans, against 12 Allied battalions. The Allies would pick off these penny packets of German reinforcements one by one as they trickled into northern Norway.
Admiral Raeder was willing to commit the Navy to the effort, covering the movement of troops to the Tromsø area 100 miles northeast of Narvik. This would include a sweep by the two battlecruisers.
And that would have been the end of the rest of the Kriegsmarine.
And it was the sudden and unforseen collapse of the Western Front in May 1940 who led the British government to the evacuation of Narvik: Fears of invasion in Britain drove the decision: One must not forget that the BEF arrived in the UK practically disarmed and the bulk of the expeditionary forces for Norway were badly beaten up
Writing of proposed troop buildups in central Norway, Churchill commented any success"would have been swept away by the results of the fearful battle in France which was now so near. .. Everything we had would havebeen drawn into the struggle for life."
Agreed. The Allies made an emotional decision based off fear of what was happening in France. Had they thought rationally about the long-term implications for the war, they would have realized (1) Britain can survive without France, (2) Germany has no navy to support a Channel crossing, (3) Germany has no navy to support an attack on Narvik, and (4) holding Narvik puts Britain in a position to end the war by denying Germany iron ore from Sweden.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#114

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 15 Mar 2021, 20:10

historygeek2021 wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 19:36
...

Agreed. The Allies made an emotional decision based off fear of what was happening in France.
Had they thought rationally about the long-term implications for the war, they would have realized (1) Britain can survive without France, (2) Germany has no navy to support a Channel crossing, (3) Germany has no navy to support an attack on Narvik, and (4) holding Narvik puts Britain in a position to end the war by denying Germany iron ore from Sweden.
Its easy to follow the unemotional Spock line here, but the Brits had more than the French example. The Germans hand pulled off more than a few operational surprises in the previous 9-10 months. It was looking like a lot of assumptions were dangerously wrong. Considering the surprising reversals still to come that was not a bad line of thinking. The RN had proved unable to defeat the very weak German Navy invading Norway. Do you really want to gamble London on that evidence? Im all for making a fight of Narvik, win or lose. But, as someone very familiar with blind situations in commercial board games and in military training Im loathe to criticize Churchill for this decision.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3776
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 20:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#115

Post by Takao » 15 Mar 2021, 21:24

Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 17:32
IIRC the deck park of Gladiators embarked hampered operations on Glorious to such a degree as to render that moot?
There was no deck park to the best of my knowledge. All aircraft - Hurricanes & Gladiators had been struck below. The Hurricanes were specifically sent to Glorious because her elevators were capable of handling them.

There is no good reason why combat air patrols were not being flown.

User avatar
danebrog
Member
Posts: 397
Joined: 17 Nov 2008, 16:59

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#116

Post by danebrog » 15 Mar 2021, 21:33

Had they thought rationally about the long-term implications for the war
Such considerations are easy to make in retrospect. But one must bear in mind the following circumstances:
- The BEF was largely rendered impotent after Dunkirk
- The surviving territorials from Norway were badly mauled
- The RAF had suffered heavy losses in France.

Great Britain still had a largely intact RN, but otherwise stood pretty much alone in Europe against a completely intact Wehrmacht, which was at the peak of its military capabilities.
It is certainly not presumptuous to assume that the RAF would not have sent forces to Norway because it was absolutely clear that they would still be urgently needed at home - for similar reasons they had already stopped sending reinforcements to the French.
For the 22 battalions in Narvik, this would have meant that they were without sufficient fighter cover while they were within range of German bombers.
Supplying these troops by sea would also have been a costly affair, because access by sea to narvik is relatively constricted. I am thinking here of mines as well as the use of bombers and submarines.
And here I dare to doubt that the RN would have raised significant forces, as it was obvious that these forces would be needed to repel the expected invasion of the motherland. Fragmentation would have been rejected from the 1940 perspective:
In such a situation, you concentrate your forces for immediate survival and don't open a costly second front at the end of the world for medium-term strategic objectives, where the tactical disadvantage is against you in virtually every way.
In Berlin, on the other hand, there was both the political will and the economic necessity to liberate Narvik. And there were enough forces in Norway to accomplish this.

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 6349
Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#117

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Mar 2021, 23:41

Takao wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 21:24
Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 17:32
IIRC the deck park of Gladiators embarked hampered operations on Glorious to such a degree as to render that moot?
There was no deck park to the best of my knowledge. All aircraft - Hurricanes & Gladiators had been struck below. The Hurricanes were specifically sent to Glorious because her elevators were capable of handling them.

There is no good reason why combat air patrols were not being flown.
Thanks. I didn't have time to look it up
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#118

Post by Peter89 » 16 Mar 2021, 08:55

historygeek2021 wrote:
15 Mar 2021, 19:36
(4) holding Narvik puts Britain in a position to end the war by denying Germany iron ore from Sweden.
Why don't you actually address the issue that the Germans did not need Narvik for the Swedish ore imports? I wrote it like three times.

If the Brits get scent of the successful re-routing of the iron, they might abandon Narvik without a fight a few months later.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#119

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Mar 2021, 14:20

Peter89 wrote:
16 Mar 2021, 08:55

If the Brits get scent of the successful re-routing of the iron, they might abandon Narvik without a fight a few months later.
Churchill being himself would have been figuring out way to drag Sweden further into it. He tried to do just that over the next three years.

historygeek2021
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 17 Dec 2020, 07:23
Location: Australia

Re: The Allies invade neutral countries to cut off German imports of crucial metals

#120

Post by historygeek2021 » 16 Mar 2021, 15:39

Peter89 wrote:
16 Mar 2021, 08:55

Why don't you actually address the issue that the Germans did not need Narvik for the Swedish ore imports?
The Germans needed Narvik to ship iron ore during winter months when the northern Baltic was frozen.

Holding Narvik also puts the British in a position to invade Sweden and occupy the iron mines at Kiruna 100 km from Narvik.

Post Reply

Return to “What if”