"Free German" forces in the West?
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"Free German" forces in the West?
The Soviets set up the "The Free Germany Committee" and the "League of German Officers" in 1943-44, which provided intelligence, psychological warfare, and related services to the Soviets, but were not taken up on their offer to raise an anti-Nazi but identifiably "German" force for conventional operations.
There were roughly 20,000-24,000 emigres, German and Austrian, and mostly Jewish, who made it to the UK or US by the time began and ended up serving in the British or US forces during WW II; some stories:
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2019/ ... lied-army/
These men were loyal to their adopted homelands, fought for them, and undoubtedly provided a tremendous resource for the Allies when it came to intelligence and counter-intelligence needs, as well as their baseline contribution to increase the Allied manpower pool...
But the total number of personnel is respectable, all things being equal ... so one wonders if that same manpower, or an element of it, had been concentrated, to what use could it have been put?
There were German emigre organizations in the UK, the US, and the Americas that attempted to organize various "exiles" organizations, but none really had the numbers or backing to build enough to have any real standing with the allies...
However, there were some individuals with reasonable standing as anti-Nazis with government leadership experience, like Albert Carl Grzesinski, and others with respectable, albeit checkered, military backgrounds (Ludwing Renn, rather than Hans Kahle, presumably), but it seems there was never an individual with the requisite standing to actually try and organize an "anti-Nazi German" movement in the west that would get any real support from the Allies...
So, the question is, was there anyone who couldd have done so, and who was in the West (defined as US or UK). given a plausible chain of events?
Mr. Friedrich von Preussen comes to mind, at least since he was in the UK when the war broke out... unclear if he ever considered it, but he's about the closest to an acceptable figurehead that comes to mind. Anyone else?
In any event, if such a movement could be cobbled together, and enough manpower concentrated to put a "Freies Deutschland" battalion or brigade-equivalent together by 1942-43 or so, where could such a force been best used by the Allies in 1943-44 or so?
Thoughts?
There were roughly 20,000-24,000 emigres, German and Austrian, and mostly Jewish, who made it to the UK or US by the time began and ended up serving in the British or US forces during WW II; some stories:
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2019/ ... lied-army/
These men were loyal to their adopted homelands, fought for them, and undoubtedly provided a tremendous resource for the Allies when it came to intelligence and counter-intelligence needs, as well as their baseline contribution to increase the Allied manpower pool...
But the total number of personnel is respectable, all things being equal ... so one wonders if that same manpower, or an element of it, had been concentrated, to what use could it have been put?
There were German emigre organizations in the UK, the US, and the Americas that attempted to organize various "exiles" organizations, but none really had the numbers or backing to build enough to have any real standing with the allies...
However, there were some individuals with reasonable standing as anti-Nazis with government leadership experience, like Albert Carl Grzesinski, and others with respectable, albeit checkered, military backgrounds (Ludwing Renn, rather than Hans Kahle, presumably), but it seems there was never an individual with the requisite standing to actually try and organize an "anti-Nazi German" movement in the west that would get any real support from the Allies...
So, the question is, was there anyone who couldd have done so, and who was in the West (defined as US or UK). given a plausible chain of events?
Mr. Friedrich von Preussen comes to mind, at least since he was in the UK when the war broke out... unclear if he ever considered it, but he's about the closest to an acceptable figurehead that comes to mind. Anyone else?
In any event, if such a movement could be cobbled together, and enough manpower concentrated to put a "Freies Deutschland" battalion or brigade-equivalent together by 1942-43 or so, where could such a force been best used by the Allies in 1943-44 or so?
Thoughts?
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Americans tried it with formation of the 101st Infantry Battalion - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Infantry_Battalion
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
True, but that was supposed to be "Austrian" and it seems pretty clear the Hapsburgs didn't bring much to the table. My recollection of what I've read about the battalion is most of the men assigned to it were men who had volunteered for, or were drafted into, the US Army, and their assignment was rather haphazard, based on birthplace and whether they had been naturalized or not...not suprisingly, the assignments didn't take.K.Kocjancic wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 09:49Americans tried it with formation of the 101st Infantry Battalion - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Infantry_Battalion
A German "De Gaulle" (or even a German "Giraud") is a challenge, but one wonders what the response would have been if the US and UK had found one to act as the "face" of such a movement.
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
In 1944 the OSS wanted to recruit Germans from the PoW pool. SHAEF prohibited this for reasons Im unaware of. However, the US 7th Army did look the other way while its OSS attachment did recruit a few Germans from the PoW being processed thru its are of operations. A smaller number did actually operate in Germany & Austria. Perisco in 'Penetrating the Reich' identifies maybe a half dozen of these men.
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
I know in rare cases Alsatians were enrolled in US Army only if they were not Nazis, so used for questioning prisoners or talk to Germans, asking for surrender or make propaganda in German
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Interesting.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑27 Mar 2021, 22:32In 1944 the OSS wanted to recruit Germans from the PoW pool. SHAEF prohibited this for reasons Im unaware of. However, the US 7th Army did look the other way while its OSS attachment did recruit a few Germans from the PoW being processed thru its are of operations. A smaller number did actually operate in Germany & Austria. Perisco in 'Penetrating the Reich' identifies maybe a half dozen of these men.
Wonder if they approached Ludwig Renn, who was in exile in Mexico. Quite "colorful" but certainly a decent combat record, from what I've read.
Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Its nuts....daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 07:52There were German emigre organizations in the UK, the US, and the Americas that attempted to organize various "exiles" organizations, but none really had the numbers or backing to build enough to have any real standing with the allies...
However, there were some individuals with reasonable standing as anti-Nazis with government leadership experience, like Albert Carl Grzesinski, and others with respectable, albeit checkered, military backgrounds (Ludwing Renn, rather than Hans Kahle, presumably), but it seems there was never an individual with the requisite standing to actually try and organize an "anti-Nazi German" movement in the west that would get any real support from the Allies...
So, the question is, was there anyone who couldd have done so, and who was in the West (defined as US or UK). given a plausible chain of events?
Mr. Friedrich von Preussen comes to mind, at least since he was in the UK when the war broke out... unclear if he ever considered it, but he's about the closest to an acceptable figurehead that comes to mind. Anyone else?
In any event, if such a movement could be cobbled together, and enough manpower concentrated to put a "Freies Deutschland" battalion or brigade-equivalent together by 1942-43 or so, where could such a force been best used by the Allies in 1943-44 or so?
Thoughts?
1. No allied politicians wanted to negotiate with a "Free Germany" group in exile, made legitimate by the existence of an organised force. A major reason for equipping the Free French, Belgians Dutch,Czechs and Poles was to demonstrate that the exiled government was the legitimate political leadership and not Vichy or whatever local Nazis the Germans installed elsewhere. Unlike the Soviet run "Free Germans" the western democracies could not run an exiled group as puppets. Allied experience with de Gaulle. (" The worse cross I had to bear was the cross of Lorraine" WSC), suggests that the last thing they needed was some ego claiming to represent Germany. Avoiding a "free German government" avoided the sort of fuss that occurred with the Poland Free government at the end of the War. Unconditional surrender mean the allies were free to dispose of Germany as they sought fit.
2. Initially the British were very suspicious of "enemy aliens" out of fear of agents and fifth columnists. Almost every German or Italian was interned. It is one reason why ,mainland Britain was largely free of German agents which allowed British intelligence to play the Double Cross programme. Internees were allowed initially into non combat roles - the Pioneer Corps, and then individuals with a real passion to fight Nazis ended up in a range of intelligence and special forces roles, then but mid war the Pioneer corps was combed through for individuals willing to serve in combat roles. Royal Armoured Corps replacements in Normandy seem to have included a lot of German jews - and even a second generation Japanese briton. Trooper Suzuki is buried in Banneville CWC.
3. Most of these men (and some women) had fled Germany as their country had rejected them as citizens out of their race or political beliefs. Why would they fight for a Free Germany?
4. These men did far more for the Allied war effort as members of the Commandos, SAS, Intelligence Corps than they would have done as riflemen or truck drivers. The allied force that made most use of German recruits was the Polish army in exile. The Wehrmacht contained many individuals from German-polish backgrounds. These were men who in 1939 had to choose between being German , and eligible for military service - or polish and losing their land and house. They refilled the ranks of the Poles. There is one story of a wounded Fallschirmjaeger captured in the ruins of the abbey at Cassino feared for his life when they realised he was from Poland, but was just given an allied uniform.
Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Its nuts....daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 07:52There were German emigre organizations in the UK, the US, and the Americas that attempted to organize various "exiles" organizations, but none really had the numbers or backing to build enough to have any real standing with the allies...
However, there were some individuals with reasonable standing as anti-Nazis with government leadership experience, like Albert Carl Grzesinski, and others with respectable, albeit checkered, military backgrounds (Ludwing Renn, rather than Hans Kahle, presumably), but it seems there was never an individual with the requisite standing to actually try and organize an "anti-Nazi German" movement in the west that would get any real support from the Allies...
So, the question is, was there anyone who couldd have done so, and who was in the West (defined as US or UK). given a plausible chain of events?
Mr. Friedrich von Preussen comes to mind, at least since he was in the UK when the war broke out... unclear if he ever considered it, but he's about the closest to an acceptable figurehead that comes to mind. Anyone else?
In any event, if such a movement could be cobbled together, and enough manpower concentrated to put a "Freies Deutschland" battalion or brigade-equivalent together by 1942-43 or so, where could such a force been best used by the Allies in 1943-44 or so?
Thoughts?
1. No significant allied politician wanted to negotiate with a "Free Germany" group in exile, made legitimate by the existence of an organised force. A major reason for equipping the Free French, Belgians Dutch,Czechs and Poles was to demonstrate that the exiled government was the legitimate political leadership and not Vichy or whatever local Nazis the Germans installed elsewhere. Unlike the Soviet run "Free Germans" the western democracies could not run an exiled group as puppets. Allied experience with de Gaulle. (" The worse cross I had to bear was the cross of Lorraine" WSC), suggests that the last thing they needed was some impotent ego claiming to represent Germany. Avoiding a "free German government" avoided the sort of fuss that occurred with the Poland Free government at the end of the War. Unconditional surrender mean the allies were free to dispose of Germany as they sought fit.
2. Initially the British were very suspicious of "enemy aliens" out of fear of agents and fifth columnists. Almost every German or Italian was interned. It is one reason why ,mainland Britain was largely free of German agents which allowed British intelligence to play the Double Cross programme. Internees were allowed initially into non combat roles - the Pioneer Corps, and then individuals with a real passion to fight Nazis ended up in a range of intelligence and special forces roles, then but mid war the Pioneer corps was combed through for individuals willing to serve in combat roles. Royal Armoured Corps replacements in Normandy seem to have included a lot of German Jews - and even a second generation Japanese briton. Trooper Suzuki is buried in Banneville CWC. There was no time when anyone considered grouping the Germans all together.
3. Most of these men (and some women) had fled Germany as their country had rejected them as citizens out of their race or political beliefs. Why would they fight for a Free Germany? Many of these were proud to become British. CHeck out Herbert Sulzbach. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld ... xwCJVRZSEA
4. These men did far more for the Allied war effort as members of the Commandos, SAS, Intelligence Corps than they would have done as riflemen or truck drivers. There is an excellent book about the Germans and Austrians who fought for Britain by Helen Fry called "The Kings Most Loyal Enemy Aliens https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kings-Most-Loy ... 0750947004
5. The allied force that made most use of German recruits was the Polish army in exile. The Wehrmacht contained many individuals from German-polish backgrounds. These were men who in 1939 had to choose between being German , and eligible for military service - or polish and losing their land and house. They refilled the ranks of the Poles. There is one story of a wounded Fallschirmjaeger captured in the ruins of the abbey at Cassino feared for his life when they realised he was from Poland, but was just given an allied uniform.
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
According to Perisco the OSS with 7th Army only selected from the PoW stream passing through.daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 09:02Interesting.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑27 Mar 2021, 22:32In 1944 the OSS wanted to recruit Germans from the PoW pool. SHAEF prohibited this for reasons Im unaware of. However, the US 7th Army did look the other way while its OSS attachment did recruit a few Germans from the PoW being processed thru its are of operations. A smaller number did actually operate in Germany & Austria. Perisco in 'Penetrating the Reich' identifies maybe a half dozen of these men.
Wonder if they approached Ludwig Renn, who was in exile in Mexico. Quite "colorful" but certainly a decent combat record, from what I've read.
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Thanks; I've meant to read Persico's work but have yet to get to it. Does raise the question of "anti-Nazi" Germans (or Austrians) who were at large in the West after 1941 that the US might have reached out to - Georg Von Trapp is another one who comes to mind; presumably he may still have had some contacts within the former Austrian militar(ies) who got folded into the Wehrmacht that might have been worth considering.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 19:56According to Perisco the OSS with 7th Army only selected from the PoW stream passing through.daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 09:02Interesting.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑27 Mar 2021, 22:32In 1944 the OSS wanted to recruit Germans from the PoW pool. SHAEF prohibited this for reasons Im unaware of. However, the US 7th Army did look the other way while its OSS attachment did recruit a few Germans from the PoW being processed thru its are of operations. A smaller number did actually operate in Germany & Austria. Perisco in 'Penetrating the Reich' identifies maybe a half dozen of these men.
Wonder if they approached Ludwig Renn, who was in exile in Mexico. Quite "colorful" but certainly a decent combat record, from what I've read.
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Understood and agree, but my question is as much about the anti-Nazi Germans (and Austrians, presumably) who were at large in the West after 1941 and were not "tapped" by the US or UK; hence the points about Albert Carl Grzesinski, Ludwing Renn, Hans Kahle, etc.Sheldrake wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 11:39Its nuts....daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 07:52There were German emigre organizations in the UK, the US, and the Americas that attempted to organize various "exiles" organizations, but none really had the numbers or backing to build enough to have any real standing with the allies...
However, there were some individuals with reasonable standing as anti-Nazis with government leadership experience, like Albert Carl Grzesinski, and others with respectable, albeit checkered, military backgrounds (Ludwing Renn, rather than Hans Kahle, presumably), but it seems there was never an individual with the requisite standing to actually try and organize an "anti-Nazi German" movement in the west that would get any real support from the Allies...
So, the question is, was there anyone who couldd have done so, and who was in the West (defined as US or UK). given a plausible chain of events?
Mr. Friedrich von Preussen comes to mind, at least since he was in the UK when the war broke out... unclear if he ever considered it, but he's about the closest to an acceptable figurehead that comes to mind. Anyone else?
In any event, if such a movement could be cobbled together, and enough manpower concentrated to put a "Freies Deutschland" battalion or brigade-equivalent together by 1942-43 or so, where could such a force been best used by the Allies in 1943-44 or so?
Thoughts?
1. No significant allied politician wanted to negotiate with a "Free Germany" group in exile, made legitimate by the existence of an organised force. A major reason for equipping the Free French, Belgians Dutch,Czechs and Poles was to demonstrate that the exiled government was the legitimate political leadership and not Vichy or whatever local Nazis the Germans installed elsewhere. Unlike the Soviet run "Free Germans" the western democracies could not run an exiled group as puppets. Allied experience with de Gaulle. (" The worse cross I had to bear was the cross of Lorraine" WSC), suggests that the last thing they needed was some impotent ego claiming to represent Germany. Avoiding a "free German government" avoided the sort of fuss that occurred with the Poland Free government at the end of the War. Unconditional surrender mean the allies were free to dispose of Germany as they sought fit.
2. Initially the British were very suspicious of "enemy aliens" out of fear of agents and fifth columnists. Almost every German or Italian was interned. It is one reason why ,mainland Britain was largely free of German agents which allowed British intelligence to play the Double Cross programme. Internees were allowed initially into non combat roles - the Pioneer Corps, and then individuals with a real passion to fight Nazis ended up in a range of intelligence and special forces roles, then but mid war the Pioneer corps was combed through for individuals willing to serve in combat roles. Royal Armoured Corps replacements in Normandy seem to have included a lot of German Jews - and even a second generation Japanese briton. Trooper Suzuki is buried in Banneville CWC. There was no time when anyone considered grouping the Germans all together.
3. Most of these men (and some women) had fled Germany as their country had rejected them as citizens out of their race or political beliefs. Why would they fight for a Free Germany? Many of these were proud to become British. CHeck out Herbert Sulzbach. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld ... xwCJVRZSEA
4. These men did far more for the Allied war effort as members of the Commandos, SAS, Intelligence Corps than they would have done as riflemen or truck drivers. There is an excellent book about the Germans and Austrians who fought for Britain by Helen Fry called "The Kings Most Loyal Enemy Aliens https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kings-Most-Loy ... 0750947004
5. The allied force that made most use of German recruits was the Polish army in exile. The Wehrmacht contained many individuals from German-polish backgrounds. These were men who in 1939 had to choose between being German , and eligible for military service - or polish and losing their land and house. They refilled the ranks of the Poles. There is one story of a wounded Fallschirmjaeger captured in the ruins of the abbey at Cassino feared for his life when they realised he was from Poland, but was just given an allied uniform.
Along with Friedrich von Preussen, various scions of the Battenbergs, Gleichens, etc. come to mind as well. Perhaps one of them could have been scared up?
The point being, if a recognized anti-Nazi "Free Germany" movement (not a government-in-exile; Free France wasn't a government-in-exile either, for the first couple of months, certainly) under someone with "some" claim to significance existed, one presumes the "Prussian Army" and "Imperial Navy" elements of the Wehrmacht might have found something to think about...
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Only as consultants.daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 21:16... Does raise the question of "anti-Nazi" Germans (or Austrians) who were at large in the West after 1941 that the US might have reached out to - Georg Von Trapp is another one who comes to mind; presumably he may still have had some contacts within the former Austrian militar(ies) who got folded into the Wehrmacht that might have been worth considering.
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
True; the story is the KM approached von Trapp and he declined, which was part of why the family relocated to Italy and the left for the US. His two oldest sons served in the US Army and ended up in the 10th Mountain Division, IIRC.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑29 Mar 2021, 04:22Only as consultants.daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 21:16... Does raise the question of "anti-Nazi" Germans (or Austrians) who were at large in the West after 1941 that the US might have reached out to - Georg Von Trapp is another one who comes to mind; presumably he may still have had some contacts within the former Austrian militar(ies) who got folded into the Wehrmacht that might have been worth considering.
Wonder if there were officers who joined the KM after the Anschluss that he knew; one interesting contemporary, who appears not to have done so, if Banfield, the flying boat ace.
Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Out of curiosity--just how many of these "Free German Forces" would have actually been German Communists? Because maybe the Soviet Union could see some value in having a domestic German Communist insurgency against the Nazis. Or maybe not since it might make the Germans even more scared of the Communist bogeyman.daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 07:52The Soviets set up the "The Free Germany Committee" and the "League of German Officers" in 1943-44, which provided intelligence, psychological warfare, and related services to the Soviets, but were not taken up on their offer to raise an anti-Nazi but identifiably "German" force for conventional operations.
There were roughly 20,000-24,000 emigres, German and Austrian, and mostly Jewish, who made it to the UK or US by the time began and ended up serving in the British or US forces during WW II; some stories:
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2019/ ... lied-army/
These men were loyal to their adopted homelands, fought for them, and undoubtedly provided a tremendous resource for the Allies when it came to intelligence and counter-intelligence needs, as well as their baseline contribution to increase the Allied manpower pool...
But the total number of personnel is respectable, all things being equal ... so one wonders if that same manpower, or an element of it, had been concentrated, to what use could it have been put?
There were German emigre organizations in the UK, the US, and the Americas that attempted to organize various "exiles" organizations, but none really had the numbers or backing to build enough to have any real standing with the allies...
However, there were some individuals with reasonable standing as anti-Nazis with government leadership experience, like Albert Carl Grzesinski, and others with respectable, albeit checkered, military backgrounds (Ludwing Renn, rather than Hans Kahle, presumably), but it seems there was never an individual with the requisite standing to actually try and organize an "anti-Nazi German" movement in the west that would get any real support from the Allies...
So, the question is, was there anyone who couldd have done so, and who was in the West (defined as US or UK). given a plausible chain of events?
Mr. Friedrich von Preussen comes to mind, at least since he was in the UK when the war broke out... unclear if he ever considered it, but he's about the closest to an acceptable figurehead that comes to mind. Anyone else?
In any event, if such a movement could be cobbled together, and enough manpower concentrated to put a "Freies Deutschland" battalion or brigade-equivalent together by 1942-43 or so, where could such a force been best used by the Allies in 1943-44 or so?
Thoughts?
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Re: "Free German" forces in the West?
Interesting question - the 20,000-24,000 emigres who historically were recruited into the UK and US forces presumably were acceptable politically, since they were accepted, after all.Futurist wrote: ↑30 Mar 2021, 01:46Out of curiosity--just how many of these "Free German Forces" would have actually been German Communists? Because maybe the Soviet Union could see some value in having a domestic German Communist insurgency against the Nazis. Or maybe not since it might make the Germans even more scared of the Communist bogeyman.daveshoup2MD wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 07:52The Soviets set up the "The Free Germany Committee" and the "League of German Officers" in 1943-44, which provided intelligence, psychological warfare, and related services to the Soviets, but were not taken up on their offer to raise an anti-Nazi but identifiably "German" force for conventional operations.
There were roughly 20,000-24,000 emigres, German and Austrian, and mostly Jewish, who made it to the UK or US by the time began and ended up serving in the British or US forces during WW II; some stories:
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2019/ ... lied-army/
These men were loyal to their adopted homelands, fought for them, and undoubtedly provided a tremendous resource for the Allies when it came to intelligence and counter-intelligence needs, as well as their baseline contribution to increase the Allied manpower pool...
But the total number of personnel is respectable, all things being equal ... so one wonders if that same manpower, or an element of it, had been concentrated, to what use could it have been put?
There were German emigre organizations in the UK, the US, and the Americas that attempted to organize various "exiles" organizations, but none really had the numbers or backing to build enough to have any real standing with the allies...
However, there were some individuals with reasonable standing as anti-Nazis with government leadership experience, like Albert Carl Grzesinski, and others with respectable, albeit checkered, military backgrounds (Ludwing Renn, rather than Hans Kahle, presumably), but it seems there was never an individual with the requisite standing to actually try and organize an "anti-Nazi German" movement in the west that would get any real support from the Allies...
So, the question is, was there anyone who couldd have done so, and who was in the West (defined as US or UK). given a plausible chain of events?
Mr. Friedrich von Preussen comes to mind, at least since he was in the UK when the war broke out... unclear if he ever considered it, but he's about the closest to an acceptable figurehead that comes to mind. Anyone else?
In any event, if such a movement could be cobbled together, and enough manpower concentrated to put a "Freies Deutschland" battalion or brigade-equivalent together by 1942-43 or so, where could such a force been best used by the Allies in 1943-44 or so?
Thoughts?
It's when you start going further afield that it gets interesting - Ludwing Renn and Hans Kahle had both fought in the International brigades in Spain, and were pretty "colorful" (to be charitable); presumably there were others.
The idea of a Russian-sponsored "Free German" force in the West is interesting. The French sent an air group to the Eastern Front, and of course the Soviets allowed (even encouraged) what became Anders' army to move west, as well, so it's not entirely impossible to conceive of the reverse ...
And that raises another possibility; the French needed manpower in 1943; setting up a "Free German" force under the FNCL's sponsorship in 1943 (and/or "Free Italians" and "Free Austrians") might have been worth considering; as it was, the French had a precedent for the perfect military organization for such men, already...