German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Cult Icon » 06 Nov 2021 13:52

Improved versions of the Borgward IV and Goliath?

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 19 Nov 2022 09:57

Going to bump this thread with a few ideas which came to my mind looking at various late-war/paper designs.

1: Greater usage of MP44 and MG42 (or MG45) instead of the costly and excellent MG34
2: Reduction/removal of torsion bars with future projects despite their great performance over country
3: Plausible reduction of crew members from 5 to 4 (driver, three in the turret) to save on manpower and stuff more fuel/ammo into the chassis
4: Higher usages of early HEAT-FS projectiles in an attempt to make cheap but high penetration weapons

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by nuyt » 21 Nov 2022 18:09

1 Volksmaschinenpistole, several variants due to decentralized manufacturing by anyone and their mother, maybe Erma 44 as well, MG45/42V, selfloading Volkssturmgewehre (many variants), various semi-automatic rifles and carbines, Sturmgewehr 45
2 PAK 50, PAW 600 in 8 cm and 10 cm, PAK 43, PAK 44, Raketenpanzerbuechse 43 and 54
3 FLAK 43, FLAK 41, Gerät 58 K or Rh, 12,8 cm FLAK 45, Luftfaust
4 10,5 cm lFH 43 K, 10,5 cm GebH 40, 15 cm sFH 43 K, 7,5 cm InfG 42
5 Leichtgeschuetze in all calibers
6 missiles, missiles, missiles, from ballistic to surface-air (like Rotkäppchen, Rheinbote, Taifun, Enzian, Rheintochter, Schmetterling, V1, V2)
7 Nebelwerfer and Wurfgeräte
8 Ladungsträger drones
9 Any and whatever jet fighter they could get up in the air.
10 Beutewaffen

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 21 Nov 2022 20:18

nuyt wrote:
21 Nov 2022 18:09

6 missiles, missiles, missiles, from ballistic to surface-air (like Rotkäppchen, Rheinbote, Taifun, Enzian, Rheintochter, Schmetterling, V1, V2
It is unlikely any of these would make a nickel's worth of difference. Most would prove nothing more than expensive failures.

Rotkäppchen (aka X-7) might have had a small effect on units defending against tanks, but it wasn't going to change the course of the war. If anything, it would have been marginally effective. The Ruhrstal X-4 AAM, a derivative, was even more worthless. A wire guided AAM is really an absurdity.

Rheinbote (aka V-3) was another worthless weapon. Sure, you could fire this one to like 100 miles, but it was unguided and delivered an 88 lbs. warhead at a pretty high cost per unit with abysmal accuracy.

Taifun was an unguided flak rocket. As the British proved with their 2" and 3" UP rockets used for the same purpose this weapon was more a measure of desperation than something that would be effective.

SAM's like Enzian, Rheintochter, and Schmetterling all lacked a viable guidance system so they are nearly, if not entirely, worthless. Add in they are subsonic as yet another reason they would be of very marginal value as an antiaircraft system. You can toss in the Wasserfall here as another SAM. That one proved in post war testing by both the Russians and Americans to be a worthless design that both abandoned as unworkable.

The V1 was a good idea. It was cheap to make and reasonably accurate. With guidance improvements, it would be a serious threat. The problem is, that the Allies had copied it (the US) as the JB-2 / Loon and could easily have manufactured ten times what the Germans could firing that many back on Germany.

The V2 was a complete waste of money. It is really a monument to Werner V. Braun's abilities as a salesman. With a CEP measured in miles and delivering a 2200 lbs. warhead at the cost of roughly an Me 110, it was going to bankrupt Germany for very little results.

On the whole, these programs for the Germans were years, possibly a decade or more, away from becoming viable systems.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by nuyt » 21 Nov 2022 20:41

Yes, that, but the question was where will the Germans end up five, ten years later as long as the war continued. In 1945 they produced a plethora of worthless missiles, but they would have got something right in due time. So, possibly a V6 or7 would be worth the effort around 1950.

And I don't claim the Germans will win the war. If they keep being squeezed by the Allies on their West and Eastern borders, who do not enter Germany proper, but let Germany survive for fear of helping each other dominate Europe and if Germany does not join any one of the Allied sides, production will be starved of raw materials. Relying on locally, decentralized small production units, turning out a variety of light weaponry for the surviving militia. Heavy weapons cant be transported around for lack of air cover, so no heavy dream tanks, but light stuff that packs a punch and is uncomplicated (and can be hidden from view). And what gets captured.

If they keep the borders of say January or March 1945 they still control a lot, with Czech arms manufacturing, Dutch shipyards and Northern Italian industry, with factories like Skoda, CKD, Breda and Böhler-Kapfenberg. A Middle Empire acting as a buffer between the West and the Soviets. If the Allies start to secretly allow the supply of raw materials, then the Germans can think of heavy weapons.

The Western Allies will want Norway, Denmark and Holland liberated though.

https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand ... tAtlas.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... tAtlas.jpg

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 21 Nov 2022 21:28

nuyt wrote:
21 Nov 2022 20:41
Yes, that, but the question was where will the Germans end up five, ten years later as long as the war continued. In 1945 they produced a plethora of worthless missiles, but they would have got something right in due time. So, possibly a V6 or7 would be worth the effort around 1950.

And I don't claim the Germans will win the war. If they keep being squeezed by the Allies on their West and Eastern borders, who do not enter Germany proper, but let Germany survive for fear of helping each other dominate Europe and if Germany does not join any one of the Allied sides, production will be starved of raw materials. Relying on locally, decentralized small production units, turning out a variety of light weaponry for the surviving militia. Heavy weapons cant be transported around for lack of air cover, so no heavy dream tanks, but light stuff that packs a punch and is uncomplicated (and can be hidden from view). And what gets captured.

If they keep the borders of say January or March 1945 they still control a lot, with Czech arms manufacturing, Dutch shipyards and Northern Italian industry, with factories like Skoda, CKD, Breda and Böhler-Kapfenberg. A Middle Empire acting as a buffer between the West and the Soviets. If the Allies start to secretly allow the supply of raw materials, then the Germans can think of heavy weapons.

The Western Allies will want Norway, Denmark and Holland liberated though.

https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand ... tAtlas.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... tAtlas.jpg
Well, in missiles, the US--in particular--will have exceeded what the Germans were producing by 1950, if not earlier. Germany doesn't have the resources or economy to produce an ICBM beyond maybe a prototype or two. They couldn't even produce a long-range four engine bomber in quantities that would have made a difference.

The British by the time Germany surrendered had already drawn equal on development of a SAM, as has the US. By 1950 under wartime conditions, both would have one that actually worked going into service.

The Allies would all have jet aircraft that are on par or better than what the Germans could produce.

Once the US gets an SRBM or IRBM in service they can toss nukes into Germany with no worries the Germans can counter them. With better guidance systems than the Germans had at the time, they'd be more than accurate enough to hit a city every time.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by nuyt » 21 Nov 2022 22:27

All good, but the US does not nuke Germany in this scenario as the war continues 5 or 10 years more. If they would nuke Berlin, Essen, Hamburg or Frankfurt in September 1945 war would be over in an instant. Germany survives to fight beyond 1945 and that can only happen if the Allies let them. So they end up with weapons under production or development in 1945, no matter how inferior they are. That's what they got. And the industrial base they are left with is very vulnerable from the skies, but it is still there (and far away from the front with the Soviets). They can only produce newer heavy stuff in they get steel, nickel, wolfram etc from someone else.
So Germany creeps slowly in the Western camp by the 1950s, provided there is no longer a holocaust going on and camps are freed. New weapons are being developed, hybrid ones with Western parts or raw materials and German gun barrels or designs. Think actual weapons: an early Leopard tank (actually developed in the 1950s), the 90mm Kanonenjagdpanzer, the Schützenpanzer Lang (und Kurz) HS.30 (1955), the Rheinmetall 105 mm barrel in a US M101 howitzer carriage, the G3 assault rifle developed from the Sturmgewehr 45, the MG2/3, etc.

Also check out these pictures of postwar German forces:
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/201 ... enzschutz/

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Geoffrey Cooke » 24 Nov 2022 04:25

A bit off topic but: GHQ table-top war gaming models has an entire product section titled “Wehrmacht 47’”, and a good deal of the mods for Assualt Squad 2 on team are about this subject.

This topic seems to be a trend lately. Strangely I’d never heard of all this “Germany lasts longer and gets more Über-Panzers” niche until a few years ago. I suppose it was inevitable with all the “Kaisserreich” alternative history stuff on YouTube regarding wwi.

For my two cents on the thread topic: we might see a redisgned version of the rejected 1942 Löwe, for one.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 25 Nov 2022 21:59

Geoffrey Cooke wrote:
24 Nov 2022 04:25
...

This topic seems to be a trend lately. Strangely I’d never heard of all this “Germany lasts longer and gets more Über-Panzers” niche until a few years ago. I suppose it was inevitable with all the “Kaisserreich” alternative history stuff on YouTube regarding wwi....

From my 68 year perspective I think it comes from the subject of alternate German paths to victory by 1945 being ridden to death. Back in my youth the talked to death equivalent was 'Gee weren't those weapons great!' that one faded to second place in the 1970s or 1980s & the discussion of 'But what if they'd done this or built that!' dominated for a long time. Now the extended war discussion shows up a lot. Yawn...

The discussions of 'WI the war starts earlier', or 'WI it starts later' are lurking about but still under discussed.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Nov 2022 22:25

Geoffrey Cooke wrote:
24 Nov 2022 04:25


This topic seems to be a trend lately. Strangely I’d never heard of all this “Germany lasts longer and gets more Über-Panzers” niche until a few years ago. I suppose it was inevitable with all the “Kaisserreich” alternative history stuff on YouTube regarding wwi.
Its been a staple, indeed a wet dream of many since long before I got online in 2000. Helion translated and published many of the Friedrich Georg 'Hitler's Miracle Weapons books c. 2003. Even this Forum has threads from way back on the subject. Many (now defunct) forums were awash with Luftwaffe 1947 fantasies. The online stampede to 'engage' stupid people (aka 'everyone deserves to be heard' delusion) has made it worse and, to be fair, compared to some of the 'Q' insanity the Luftwaffe 1947 believers seem pretty tame.

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