German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

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Michael Kenny
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Sep 2021 23:54

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
14 Sep 2021 22:41
Who spends his retirement/free time on reddit? Whats the purpose? Aren't there any better places to discuss tank combat/tank wrecks?
The problem with being a nerd (as all here are) is you tend to overlook your own nerdness and castigate nerds you see as further down the pecking scale. I grant you the information bar is much lower on reddit and roughly comparable to facebook but with the unchecked ability to flat out lie and invent without any official sanction. It is no place for the thin-skinned or those of a sensitive nature as minor disagreements can result in extremely personal attacks which is why most of the people who get banned from polite discourse end up there-no one else will entertain them.
I strongly dispute that being in a place where 1000s of people are daily seeking out 'tank-wreck' photos is an unproductive activity for those who are looking for specific tank-wreck photos. There are huge numbers of such photos being posted and though it is not unusual to find the same old favourites endlessly re-used now and then genuinely 'new' and historically significant pictures are discovered. I can tell you that (for example) running down leads provided from reddit I was able to discover a source for some PK photos no longer in the Official Archives and several 'new' photos that provide different angles on previous versions of 'history'. I see it as a version of 'Google search' with, in my case, enough nuggets to make it worth the effort to keep winnowing.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 15 Sep 2021 00:03

Michael Kenny wrote:
14 Sep 2021 23:54
Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
14 Sep 2021 22:41
Who spends his retirement/free time on reddit? Whats the purpose? Aren't there any better places to discuss tank combat/tank wrecks?
The problem with being a nerd (as all here are) is you tend to overlook your own nerdness and castigate nerds you see as further down the pecking scale. I grant you the information bar is much lower on reddit and roughly comparable to facebook but with the unchecked ability to flat out lie and invent without any official sanction. It is no place for the thin-skinned or those of a sensitive nature as minor disagreements can result in extremely personal attacks which is why most of the people who get banned from polite discourse end up there-no one else will entertain them.
I strongly dispute that being in a place where 1000s of people are daily seeking out 'tank-wreck' photos is an unproductive activity for those who are looking for specific tank-wreck photos. There are huge numbers of such photos being posted and though it is not unusual to find the same old favourites endlessly re-used now and then genuinely 'new' and historically significant pictures are discovered. I can tell you that (for example) running down leads provided from reddit I was able to discover a source for some PK photos no longer in the Official Archives and several 'new' photos that provide different angles on previous versions of 'history'. I see it as a version of 'Google search' with, in my case, enough nuggets to make it worth the effort to keep winnowing.
From a nerd perspective Reddit surely offers many possibilities. For me it is too toxic and emotionally charged for daily consumption.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 15 Sep 2021 02:30

Kingfish wrote:
15 Sep 2021 02:02
Cult Icon wrote:
13 Sep 2021 14:26
The advantage of the troop transporter with a tank chasis is that it could keep up with the tanks more closely (in all terrain) and deploy infantry close-in. It provided mobility and protection, particularly against a hornet's nest, making it more difficult to pursue the typical tactics of separating/destroying the infantry support from the armor.

In facing heavy defenses, the SPW typically released its infantry in safe areas, and the inf advanced on foot, creating a separation between the tanks.
OK, but are we speaking in hypothetical or are there historical accounts of fully tracked APCs being used in such a way during WW2?
I don't think even the Kangaroo's and defrocked Priests were used that way by the Allies. The Germans did use their Sdkfz 251's to support infantry in the assault some times but usually in lieu of tanks.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by danebrog » 15 Sep 2021 02:33

OK, but are we speaking in hypothetical or are there historical accounts of fully tracked APCs being used in such a way during WW2?
canadian RAM Kangaroos comes to mind:
https://wwiitank.wordpress.com/british/ ... /kangaroo/

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Cult Icon » 15 Sep 2021 02:39

Yes, the Kangaroos were used by the CW forces for various operations (starting from TOTALIZE), as an operational asset.

The German army also employed Flak divisions and Flak corps, however they did not employ a mechanized Flak unit as a GHQ asset. There was also the 18th Artillery division on the Eastern Front, a rare asset, although dwarfed by the numbers of Soviet Artillery Corps and divisions. This is not to be confused with the ragtag Volks artillery corps. This unit was highly equipped, albeit criticized by some for being overstuffed with equipment, clogging up road networks and being awkward.

It would have been interesting (to see if a mechanized "flak shield" actually works) if they organized a mechanized FLAK unit as a GHQ asset to support attacks to provide close-in anti-air and ground support.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Cult Icon » 15 Sep 2021 03:24

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flakpanzer_Coelian

The book Paper Panzers by Jentz, Doyle has photographs and descriptions of the next-generation Flakpanzer prototypes. What is immediately apparent is the thick armor of the flak turret, increasing possibilities for close support of tanks.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 15 Sep 2021 03:31, edited 1 time in total.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 15 Sep 2021 03:30

During the polder campaign in Holland in late 1944, the Canadians used the US LVT 4 Buffalos this way to assault German defended towns on high ground as nothing else could cross the flooded polders. They were also used at the Scheldt as nothing else could run and and deliver troops.
Many of the British ones got improvised shields on the machineguns and some got a 20mm cannon added for offensive armament.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Terry Duncan » 15 Sep 2021 13:24

Can people please cease posting members alternate names from other forums? This is a form of doxing and will not be tolerated here.

Thread locked temporarily for people to calm down and reflect on how long a ban they may get if they decide to continue such activity.

Terry Duncan


Edit: Reopened. Hopefully, people have reflected on their actions and will proceed from this point on with more decorum and honour.

Terry

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Cult Icon » 27 Sep 2021 19:15

It reading the new book "Panzergrenadier" (Thomas Anderson), there was a fully tracked German carrier program developed starting at the end of 1942. It was basically the Czech tank chasis (Pz 38T). Prototypes completed in 1943. The photographs in the book show a fully enclosed carrier. Not sure if the troop carrier model was meant to be closed topped.

Capacity 1 driver + 10 men plus radio and 3 LMG.

There was also variants considered with a 20mm Flak gun, 75mm, mortar, and ambulance. However the program was canceled in 1944. One of the models had 30mm front armor, I wonder if they would have increased the armored protection to Hetzer levels if the program continued.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepanzert ... 4tzchen%27

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 27 Sep 2021 19:33

Cult Icon wrote:
27 Sep 2021 19:15
It reading the new book "Panzergrenadier" (Thomas Anderson), there was a fully tracked German carrier program developed starting at the end of 1942. It was basically the Czech tank chasis (Pz 38T). Prototypes completed in 1943. The photographs in the book show a fully enclosed carrier. Not sure if the troop carrier model was meant to be closed topped.

Capacity 1 driver + 10 men plus radio and 3 LMG.

There was also variants considered with a 20mm Flak gun, 75mm, mortar, and ambulance. However the program was canceled in 1944. One of the models had 30mm front armor, I wonder if they would have increased the armored protection to Hetzer levels if the program continued.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepanzert ... 4tzchen%27
If you use the link in post #82 I put up, it has numerous photos of this prototype in detail. It was an open-topped carrier based on the Pz 38t / d chassis.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Kingfish » 29 Sep 2021 01:23

T. A. Gardner wrote:
15 Sep 2021 02:30
I don't think even the Kangaroo's and defrocked Priests were used that way by the Allies.
Which brings me back to my original question of why the need to develop a fully tracked APC.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 29 Sep 2021 02:47

Kingfish wrote:
29 Sep 2021 01:23
T. A. Gardner wrote:
15 Sep 2021 02:30
I don't think even the Kangaroo's and defrocked Priests were used that way by the Allies.
Which brings me back to my original question of why the need to develop a fully tracked APC.
I'd say in this case because it was cheaper and easier to produce. The Sdkfz 251 was a pretty complex and expensive vehicle to manufacture. The tracks were rubber bushed, lubricated needle bearing tracks that with proper maintenance would last virtually forever. It had an interleaved suspension that was great from an engineering standpoint, but complex.
It was also really more of a three-quarter track than a half track. When you turned sharply, the steering invoked a system of differential track speed to assist in the turn. It used torsion bar suspension.

Compare that to the simple Pz 38t. This vehicle had four large road wheels and leaf spring suspension. It was automotively simple. At the same time, it had equal or better cross country performance and could be produced at a lower cost more quickly. It really was a much better vehicle than the Hanomag design.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Oct 2021 21:46

Compare that to the simple Pz 38t. This vehicle had four large road wheels and leaf spring suspension. It was automotively simple. At the same time, it had equal or better cross country performance and could be produced at a lower cost more quickly. It really was a much better vehicle than the Hanomag design.
I wonder how those compare to the French transporter designs. They had both half tracked and full tracked transporters/draught vehicles. Armored and unarmored.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Cult Icon » 13 Oct 2021 17:01

lacking this and this:

Doyle, Hilary Louis & Friedli, Lukas (2016). Vollketten M.S.P. Kätzchen and Final Developments of the Schützenpanzerwagen (Sd.Kfz.251). Panzer Tracts. 15–4.

Rolf Wirtgen (Hrsg.): Vom Auto-Union "Kätzchen" zum SP 15 und SP 12.1. Ein Beitrag zur Vor- und Frühgeschichte der Schützenpanzerentwicklungen in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

My personal guess is that the Gep. MTW Kätzchen program was canceled because those chasis were better off being used as Hetzer tank destroyers, which fulfilled an important need in inf units (hetzer equipped anti-tank companies) and some GHQ TD units.

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Re: German armored vehicles/weapons if the war continued?

Post by Von Schadewald » 19 Oct 2021 23:24

Judging by this depiction, the twin 3.7cm of the planned Flakpanzer 341 would have been able to reach out high enough to bring down Liberators!
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