OVERLORD and ANVIL with the February 1944 compromise on landing craft allocation

[daveshoup2MD]

As far as the Germans were concerned Europe was one big theatre of operations. Troops in France could be on the Eastern Front or in Italy in 48 hours and vice versa. The distinction between ETO and MTO is artificial.

True, but a bit exaggerated. It depended a bit on the types of troops, the availability of trains, and the like. II. SS-Panzerkorps is illustrative. The corps along with 9. and 10. SS-Pz.-Div. were on the Ostfront as of 6 June and were ordered to return to Normandy on 11 June. By 18 June, 27 trains with corps troops and 9. SS-Pz.-Div. were in the area of Ob.West and 21 arrived in Nancy (ULTRA HW5/510, CX/MSS/T224/117, 24 June 1944). By 21 June, 78 trains were in the area with 62 unloaded at Nancy and 10 unloaded at Dreuex and west of Paris (ULTRA HW5/511, CX/MSS/T225/9, 25 June 1944). For 10. SS, by 21 June, 62 trains were in the area of Ob. West with 47 unloaded at Nancy-Saarbrücken (ULTRA HW5/511, CX/MSS/T225/9, 25 June 1944). They then had to motor to Normandy, with 9. SS arriving at the front 26 June and 10. SS the next day.

48 hours vis a vis 360 hours (15 days) is a

"bit exaggerated"?

Okay. :roll:

[Richard Anderson]

48 hours vis a vis 360 hours (15 days) is a

"bit exaggerated"?

Okay. :roll:

Um :roll: right back atcha. It took you nearly a year to miss the gentle sarcasm and respond?

[Carl Schwamberger]

Anyone recall the OB for Operation Margarethe? At least two Pz Div were withdrawn from France for it? Occurs to me mid March would have been a date for Op ANVIL just to screw with German deployment for Op M.

[daveshoup2MD]

48 hours vis a vis 360 hours (15 days) is a

"bit exaggerated"?

Okay. :roll:

Um :roll: right back atcha. It took you nearly a year to miss the gentle sarcasm and respond?

Some of us have day jobs, you know?

[daveshoup2MarDiv]

Anyone recall the OB for Operation Margarethe? At least two Pz Div were withdrawn from France for it? Occurs to me mid March would have been a date for Op ANVIL just to screw with German deployment for Op M.

According to this source: https://codenames.info/operation/margarethe-i/

"Hubert Lanz’s XXII Gebirgskorps advancing from Serbia and Slavonia, Hans Dehner’s LXIX Corps from Croatia, Walter Krüger’s LVIII Reserve-Panzerkorps from the Vienna area and Oswin Grolig’s LXXVIII Corps from the Kraków area."

According to this one : viewtopic.php?f=55&t=251671

- 367th Infantry Division
- 1st Mountain Division
- 100th Jäger Division
- Brandenburg Regiment
- Panzer Lehr Division
- LXIX. Corps Staff
- LXXVIII. Corps Staff
- LVIII. Panzer Corps Staff
- 8th SS Cavalry Division (Florian Geyer)
- 18th SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division (Horst Wessel)

So, presumably, Pz Lehr and 18 SS PG.?

[Richard Anderson]

That should be 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Reichsführer SS" rather than 18.

16. SS was minus its reinforced II./SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 36, which was at Anzio as "SS-Sturmbrigade Reichsführer SS", but was reinforced by 1. SS Panzergrenadier Lehr Regiment and Begleit-Bataillon "Reichsführer SS".

[Richard Anderson]

That should be 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Reichsführer SS" rather than 18.

16. SS was minus its reinforced II./SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 36, which was at Anzio as "SS-Sturmbrigade Reichsführer SS", but was reinforced by 1. SS Panzergrenadier Lehr Regiment and Begleit-Bataillon "Reichsführer SS".

Well I stand corrected. 16. SS was there, sort of, verstärkt SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 18 was attached to 1 Gebirgs-Division for the operation.

[Richard Anderson]

Wheeeeee! The deployment for MARGARETHE was wascko! As near as I can make out from various often contradictory sources, it was something like this:

2. Panzerarmee
Operationsstab Margarete -Generalleutnant Hermann Foertsch?

Stab XXII. Gebirgskorps – Iannina, Greece
Korpstruppen
- Arko 422
- Korps-Nachrichten-Abteilung 422
- Korps-Nachschub-Truppen 422
- Korps-Kartenstelle (mot.) 422
- Feldgendarmerie-Trupp a (mot.) 422
Kampfgruppe Hildebrandt - Oberst von Hildebrandt (Kdr. Grenadier-Regiment (mot.) 92)
- Grenadier-Regiment (mot.) 92
- Regimentsstab/Grenadier-Regiment 92
- I./Grenadier-Regiment 92
- II./Grenadier-Regiment 92 (Sonderverband 287 (Deutsch-Arabische Legion))
- III./Regiment 4. Brandenburg
- Pionier-Batallion 45 (o. 1 Kompanie u. 2 Zug)
- Panzer-Abteilung 202 (o. 2 Kompanien)
- StuG Brigade 201 (o. 2 Batterien)
- Brüko (mot.) B 658
- SS Polizei Regiment 5
- II./Flak Regiment (mot.) 25
Kampfgruppe Brauner – Generalleutnant Brauner von Haydringen (Kdr. 42. Jäger-Division) - Zagreb
- 42. Jäger-Division (mobile elements only)
- Brüko (mot.) B2/402
- I./Flak Regiment (mot.) 6
- 1./Pionier-Batallion (mot.) 45
- Grenadier-Batallion/100. Jäger-Division (auf Eisenbahn)
- Panzerzug 64
- le. Panzerzug 301
Kampfgruppe Streckenbach SS-Oberfh. Streckenbach (Kdr. 8. SS Kavallerie-Division “Prinz Eugen”)
- (motorized elements only)
100. Jäger-Division (o. 1 Grenadier Batallion) – Belgrade

Stab LXIX. Armeekorps – Zagreb, Croatia
Korpstruppen
- Arko 169
- Nachrichten-Kompanie 469
367. Infanterie-Division – Zagreb, Croatia
1. Gebirgs-Division – Ljubljana, Slovenia
- verstärkt SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 18

Stab LVIII. Reserve-Panzerkorps – Vienna
Korpstruppen
- Korps-Nachrichten-Abteilung 458
- Korps-Kartenstelle 458
- Korps-Nachschubtruppen 458
- Armeetruppen
- Artillerie-Abteilung 997
- Artillerie-Abteilung 992
- Landesschützen-Bataillon 503
- Panzer-Abteilung 301
- schwere Panzer-Abteilung 507
- SS-Panzer-Abteilung "Wiking"
- Bau-Bataillon 798
- Brückenkolonne B 833
- Flak-Regiment 71
Panzer Lehr Division – Vienna
16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Reichsführer SS" (o. Sturmbrigade Reichsführer SS) – Raab
- SS-Panzergrenadier-Lehr-Regiment 1
- Begleit-Bataillon "Reichsführer SS"
21. Panzer-Division – Vienna

Stab LXXVIII. Armeekorps z.b.V. - Kracow
Korpstruppen
- Nachrichten-Kompanie 478
- Korps-Nachschubtruppen 478
Supposedly elements of a Panzergrenadier or Infanterie-Division (mot)?

[Aida1]

In any case, the number of German Divisions in France in 1943, HAD WE DECIDED TO INVADE, would've been much larger. One of the problems with "what if" is we don't know EXACTLY what the other side would've done in response to our side doing the "What if".

We do know that any invasion of France in 1943, couldn't have been kept a secret. The exact landing spot? yes. The exact time? Yes. But overall intention to land in France in Summer 1943? No. So, Hitler would've moved Troops to France. And he would've had MORE divisions than he actually had. How many? Who knows. But its one reason why "Counting divisions" is irrelevant in this case.

No as one can hide this intention perfectly as it would be totally unexpected.

[Aida1]

We do know that any invasion of France in 1943, couldn't have been kept a secret. The exact landing spot? yes. The exact time? Yes. But overall intention to land in France in Summer 1943? No. So, Hitler would've moved Troops to France. And he would've had MORE divisions than he actually had. How many? Who knows. But its one reason why "Counting divisions" is irrelevant in this case.

This is a point that Brooke noted in his diary. As far as the Germans were concerned Europe was one big theatre of operations. Troops in France could be on the Eastern Front or in Italy in 48 hours and vice versa. The distinction between ETO and MTO is artificial.

Movement from the eastern front took longer than that, particularly if it involved several divisions.

[Aida1]

In any case, the number of German Divisions in France in 1943, HAD WE DECIDED TO INVADE, would've been much larger. One of the problems with "what if" is we don't know EXACTLY what the other side would've done in response to our side doing the "What if".

We do know that any invasion of France in 1943, couldn't have been kept a secret. The exact landing spot? yes. The exact time? Yes. But overall intention to land in France in Summer 1943? No. So, Hitler would've moved Troops to France. And he would've had MORE divisions than he actually had. How many? Who knows. But its one reason why "Counting divisions" is irrelevant in this case.

Peter, meet Paul. Apparently one of you has been robbed...

Hitler would've moved Troops to France?

Really? From where? Kursk?

Great, ZITADELLE turns into BAGRATION a year early. Awesome.

See, the thing about two front wars (and why one tries to avoid them, generally, especially when one's alliance is weaker than one's opponents) is they give one side plenty of options, none of them good.

If, in fact, they are actually two-front wars, and not 1.25 front wars.

Historically, Hitler decided to move the II SS Pz corps when the allies landed in Sicily. Eventually only Leibstandarte left.The prospect of allied landings is one of the reasons Hitler hesitated a long time before definitively deciding to do Zitadelle.
In 1942 Hitler had moved Leibstandarte and Das Reich to France when he was convinced the allies could land to take the pressure off the red Army. Moving Gross Deutschland was also considered then.

[Carl Schwamberger]

In 1942 Hitler had moved Leibstandarte and Das Reich to France when he was convinced the allies could land to take the pressure off the red Army. Moving Gross Deutschland was also considered then.

Both divisions were severely depleted in the east. The July decision to withdraw them to France also had to do with restoring them to combat worthy status. Initially the intent was to rebuild them as panzergrenadier divisions vs the motorized infantry TO/TE previous. This was changed to equipping and organizing them both as panzer divisions, increasing the tank strength and changes in the other units. Published secondary sources and assorted web discussions I've read differ widely on the training status and equipment of this pair and their parent II SS Corps (later II SS panzer Crops). At worst in October 1942 they are still missing key personnel, lack a full complement of equipment and what was on hand is claimed to have been a training allotment of leftover French material, and a limited number of new items for instruction. Rated a Category III formation suitable for defense operations. Other descriptions cover a spectrum up to near full strength in men and equipment and fairly well trained. Whatever the condition the pair & corps HQ were alerted in late October 1942 when a mass of ships departed the UK and formed multiple convoys headed south. The II Pz Corps moved to its anti invasion assembly areas in west central France. In November the corps demonstrated its ability to move through southern France with speed and disarm the residual French army there. In January the corps moved to the east and performed credibly fighting the Red Army.

A reliable inventory of the equipment and personnel status of the these two divisions, and corps support group in July or August , and again in October would be useful. Im also curious about the status of other Pz & motorized divisions/corps present in France during 1942. IIREC a army pz Corps was present in Oct 1942 & also was deployed to anti invasion sites during the convoy alarm.

[Aida1]

In 1942 Hitler had moved Leibstandarte and Das Reich to France when he was convinced the allies could land to take the pressure off the red Army. Moving Gross Deutschland was also considered then.

Both divisions were severely depleted in the east. The July decision to withdraw them to France also had to do with restoring them to combat worthy status.

This is not correct. Leibstandarte was not depleted as it was in a more quiet sector than Das Reich It received new units on the eastern front in june 1942 which had been set up in Germany to stock it up to a dIvision . It was undergoing a short refit behind the front when it was urgently transferred to France. I detailed that in another thread.
Das Reich was refitting in Germany when it was urgently sent to France. Also detailed in another thread.
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