Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Ружичасти Слон
Member
Posts: 488
Joined: 24 Jan 2020 16:31
Location: Изгубљени

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 06 Sep 2021 12:27

ljadw wrote:
06 Sep 2021 06:31
if Italy remained neutral in 1940, this would also cost Germany a lot of divisions :the Mediterranean would be a British lake and Britain could easily invade southern Europe,and Germany would be forced to transfer a lot of divisions to that region .Thus, no Barbarossa .
Not real history. It is ljadw invents for to make tosh imaginations storys.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15677
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 06 Sep 2021 17:11

Gooner1 wrote:
06 Sep 2021 11:51
Has anyone pointed out that with a neutral, or 'suppressed' Italy, Britain probably doesn't suffer it's greatest defeat of the war - the fall of Singapore - yet?

That might explain some of the hostility Italy and the Italians were treated with by contemporary Brits. That and the feeling of betrayal after being allies in the Great War in which the Italian war effort was majorly financed by Britain who magnanimously cancelled the huge debt after the war.


Also, unless Germany plans to leave another potential enemy and possible doorway onto the continent for the British on their southern flank, there is the problem of Greece. A tough nut to crack if Germany intends an invasion I suggest.
The Italians also felt betrayed in 1918 :they had received the promise of parts of the Ottoman empire in 1915,and his promise was the main reason for their intervention .They had suffered 1 million casualties and received nothing,while Greece,whose role was negligible,received the consent to invade Turkey after WW1.
In 1917 Italy was promised Izmir, but the allies gave it to Greece .
The Italians would say that they paid their debt to Britain with 1 million casualties, saving the lives of countless Britons .
And, I don't see the relation between a neutral Italy and the fall of Singapore ,which was caused by the Japanese .

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10162
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Sep 2021 09:49

Hi ljadw,

All we are learning from your posts is that you have a severe and irrational hatred of Britain.

This is so severe that you think the British press has no right to even discuss Italy!

The Italian press is free to print what it likes about the UK and probably does.

You post, "The truth is that for the average Britain Italy is still a country of ice vendors that was defeated 80 years ago....." Nope. The truth is that the oldest generation probably still have something of this view but the level of historic ignorance and indifference amongst younger generations means that they either don't know or don't care one way or the other about Italy.

Italy has not been a great success militarily in the last 200 years. It was reportedly the only nation that liberated itself without winning a military victory in the field over its foreign oppressors. On its one 19th Century foray into colonial conquest it suffered the disaster of Adowa in Ethiopia, which is up there with the worst British colonial debacles. It was held at bay by a minority of the forces of an overstretched and eventually disintegrating Austria-Hungary in WWI. We have discussed its generally unfortunate record in WWII. Set against this, Italian military successes are very limited. These are facts. This doesn't reflect on Italians generally, but it does reflect on the quality of their political and military leaderships and the judgements they made as to what was possible for a then industrially under developed Italy.

These things shouldn't affect attitudes to modern Italy, which at one stage achieved an economic "Il Sorpasso" of the UK and is widely respected on a cultural level.

And if you want a bit of British press that confounds your premise, try this from the generally fairly xenophobic Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -dies.html. It begins, "The astonishing courage of an Italian hostage in the face of his murder by Iraqi militiamen was revealed to the world yesterday....."

And if you want a positive British appreciation of Italy's current military, try this RUSI article: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/p ... -footprint

If you only look for negative British comment on Italy, you will only find negative British comment on Italy. Cast your net wider and you might be pleasantly surprised!

Cheers,

Sid.

Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2792
Joined: 06 Jan 2006 12:24
Location: London

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Gooner1 » 07 Sep 2021 11:22

ljadw wrote:
06 Sep 2021 17:11
The Italians also felt betrayed in 1918 :they had received the promise of parts of the Ottoman empire in 1915,and his promise was the main reason for their intervention .They had suffered 1 million casualties and received nothing,while Greece,whose role was negligible,received the consent to invade Turkey after WW1.
In 1917 Italy was promised Izmir, but the allies gave it to Greece .
The Italians would say that they paid their debt to Britain with 1 million casualties, saving the lives of countless Britons .
Italy's gains from WWI included the Trentino, Südtirol Alto Adige, Gorizia, Trieste, Pola, Zara and, eventually, Fiume.
They could be grateful they were not 'given' part of Turkey.

The fact that some Italian politicians felt betrayed shows the qualities which shortly led to Italy being ruled by the original Fascist dictator.

And, I don't see the relation between a neutral Italy and the fall of Singapore ,which was caused by the Japanese .
Really?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15677
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 07 Sep 2021 13:48

What Italy received is besides the question : the point is that Britain and France did not honor their promises . They preferred to give parts of the Ottoman Empire to Greece,the influence of which during the war was insignificant .
A neutral Italy would not increase British strength in the Far East .
It was Britain that,after the fall of France, chose the Mediterranean, NA and the Balkans as battleground,and the reason was that only in NA,the Mediterranean and the Balkans Britain could threaten Germany.And, if Italy was neutral, this would not change .Besides, more capital ships in the Far East would not save Singapore .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15677
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 07 Sep 2021 13:58

Sid Guttridge wrote:
07 Sep 2021 09:49
Hi ljadw,

All we are learning from your posts is that you have a severe and irrational hatred of Britain.

This is so severe that you think the British press has no right to even discuss Italy!

The Italian press is free to print what it likes about the UK and probably does.

You post, "The truth is that for the average Britain Italy is still a country of ice vendors that was defeated 80 years ago....." Nope. The truth is that the oldest generation probably still have something of this view but the level of historic ignorance and indifference amongst younger generations means that they either don't know or don't care one way or the other about Italy.

Italy has not been a great success militarily in the last 200 years. It was reportedly the only nation that liberated itself without winning a military victory in the field over its foreign oppressors. On its one 19th Century foray into colonial conquest it suffered the disaster of Adowa in Ethiopia, which is up there with the worst British colonial debacles. It was held at bay by a minority of the forces of an overstretched and eventually disintegrating Austria-Hungary in WWI. We have discussed its generally unfortunate record in WWII. Set against this, Italian military successes are very limited. These are facts. This doesn't reflect on Italians generally, but it does reflect on the quality of their political and military leaderships and the judgements they made as to what was possible for a then industrially under developed Italy.

These things shouldn't affect attitudes to modern Italy, which at one stage achieved an economic "Il Sorpasso" of the UK and is widely respected on a cultural level.

And if you want a bit of British press that confounds your premise, try this from the generally fairly xenophobic Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -dies.html. It begins, "The astonishing courage of an Italian hostage in the face of his murder by Iraqi militiamen was revealed to the world yesterday....."

And if you want a positive British appreciation of Italy's current military, try this RUSI article: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/p ... -footprint

If you only look for negative British comment on Italy, you will only find negative British comment on Italy. Cast your net wider and you might be pleasantly surprised!

Cheers,

Sid.
Give me a reason why the British media should have the right to attack Italy .
And the whole thing is NOT about negative comment on Italy, it is about the use of falsifications to attack Italy .It is about racist letters in the Guardian, published ,thus agreed by the Guardian,and against which there was no negative comment, thus an approval by those who dominate the media .
Imagine the same racist letter about the Scots, Muslims,or blacks .
An other comment was : everyday sexism is the norm in Italy.
No proofs were given for this claim .
And, if it was true, why should that be the business of Britain ?
Is there no sexism in Britain,or in Afghanistan ?

Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2792
Joined: 06 Jan 2006 12:24
Location: London

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Gooner1 » 07 Sep 2021 15:36

ljadw wrote:
07 Sep 2021 13:48
What Italy received is besides the question : the point is that Britain and France did not honor their promises . They preferred to give parts of the Ottoman Empire to Greece,the influence of which during the war was insignificant .
Italy got every Italian majority area outside the Italy of 1915 (except Switzerland natch) and then some, this Italia irredenta always the strongest motivation for Italy to join the war on the Allied side.
Those parts of the Ottoman Empire 'offered' to Italy had major or majority Greek speaking populations. Unlikely Italy could even have defended those Anatolian territories from a rejuvenated Kemalist Turkey any better than Greece did.
This vittoria mutilata best seen as the fascist equivalent of the German 'stab in the back' myth.

A neutral Italy would not increase British strength in the Far East .
Of course it bloody would.
Last edited by Gooner1 on 07 Sep 2021 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10162
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Sep 2021 15:36

Hi ljadw,

You seem unable to tell the difference between a critique and an attack.

What is this letter in the Guardian? I have asked you many times to put up links. Why do you not do so? Put it up immediately, so we know what you are talking about.

(Please note that the publication of letters does not imply editorial approval. They are often the recognized avenue by which views counter those of the newspaper concerned can be aired in its pages.)

I see you are not denying that sexism is the norm in Italy - just that "no proofs were given."

It is the work of newspapers to keep a population informed about the world around it. Italy is part of that world and cannot expect to escape notice, let alone comment. In actual fact, Italy rarely gets mentioned in British papers except in the context of football or the EU. It only got prominent coverage at the start of Covid because it was the first European state to be badly hit by it. That was entirely justified. Sadly, the British Government did not react quickly enough, implying that the problem was not too much coverage of Covid in Italy in the British media, but too little!

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15677
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 07 Sep 2021 15:53

Sid Guttridge wrote:
07 Sep 2021 09:49
Hi ljadw,

All we are learning from your posts is that you have a severe and irrational hatred of Britain.

This is so severe that you think the British press has no right to even discuss Italy!

The Italian press is free to print what it likes about the UK and probably does.

You post, "The truth is that for the average Britain Italy is still a country of ice vendors that was defeated 80 years ago....." Nope. The truth is that the oldest generation probably still have something of this view but the level of historic ignorance and indifference amongst younger generations means that they either don't know or don't care one way or the other about Italy.

Italy has not been a great success militarily in the last 200 years. It was reportedly the only nation that liberated itself without winning a military victory in the field over its foreign oppressors. On its one 19th Century foray into colonial conquest it suffered the disaster of Adowa in Ethiopia, which is up there with the worst British colonial debacles. It was held at bay by a minority of the forces of an overstretched and eventually disintegrating Austria-Hungary in WWI. We have discussed its generally unfortunate record in WWII. Set against this, Italian military successes are very limited. These are facts. This doesn't reflect on Italians generally, but it does reflect on the quality of their political and military leaderships and the judgements they made as to what was possible for a then industrially under developed Italy.

These things shouldn't affect attitudes to modern Italy, which at one stage achieved an economic "Il Sorpasso" of the UK and is widely respected on a cultural level.

And if you want a bit of British press that confounds your premise, try this from the generally fairly xenophobic Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -dies.html. It begins, "The astonishing courage of an Italian hostage in the face of his murder by Iraqi militiamen was revealed to the world yesterday....."

And if you want a positive British appreciation of Italy's current military, try this RUSI article: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/p ... -footprint

If you only look for negative British comment on Italy, you will only find negative British comment on Italy. Cast your net wider and you might be pleasantly surprised!

Cheers,

Sid.
I am still waiting for examples of my severe and irrational hatred for Britain .
Some 20 years ago, I had a discussion with a Londoner who was distributing positive and negative comments about other countries, such as Russia, Italy,etc .And,when I asked him where he took the right to patronize,lecture, criticize other countries, his final answer was : because we won the war .
And, this '' I am father who knows best ''arrogance is still active in Britain .
When Belarus, not a member of the EU,condemned an opponent of the ruling regime, there was a lot of indignation in Britain.Are there no problems in Britain to be solved ?
It is the same about the coup in Guinea.
And, why would Italy need a positive appreciation from Britain of her armed forces ?
Is this appreciation not another example of Daddy congratulating his little son for what he did at school?
And, what the Daily Mail said,is a lot of nonsense :the attitude of this hostage was not revealed to the world :most of the world knew nothing about it and those who knew something about it,did not care about it .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15677
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 07 Sep 2021 16:01

Sid Guttridge wrote:
07 Sep 2021 15:36
Hi ljadw,

You seem unable to tell the difference between a critique and an attack.

What is this letter in the Guardian? I have asked you many times to put up links. Why do you not do so? Put it up immediately, so we know what you are talking about.

(Please note that the publication of letters does not imply editorial approval. They are often the recognized avenue by which views counter those of the newspaper concerned can be aired in its pages.)

I see you are not denying that sexism is the norm in Italy - just that "no proofs were given."

It is the work of newspapers to keep a population informed about the world around it. Italy is part of that world and cannot expect to escape notice, let alone comment. In actual fact, Italy rarely gets mentioned in British papers except in the context of football or the EU. It only got prominent coverage at the start of Covid because it was the first European state to be badly hit by it. That was entirely justified. Sadly, the British Government did not react quickly enough, implying that the problem was not too much coverage of Covid in Italy in the British media, but too little!

Cheers,

Sid.
Sexism in Italy is not my or your business, but the business of the Italians only .Those who talk about sexism in Italy must prove that this sexism exist ,and if it exist, it still is not their business .
The redaction of a newspaper decides which letters will be published , and the Guardian,Independent ,Financial Times will publish only those letters that follow the policy of these media, and we all know what is this policy .
I like to see letters in the Independent that support Johnson and Israel .

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Europe

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Peter89 » 07 Sep 2021 16:08

Are we still talking about WW2?
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15677
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 07 Sep 2021 16:24

The comments from the readers appeared on 27 July 2013 in The Mail, not The Guardian . My mistake .
Two more examples of anti-Italian bias :
30 July 2013 : Tobias Jones in the Guardian : Why is Italy still so racist ?
Cooper in the Telegraph (2013 ) : Italy has only just ratified a convention of the European Council about combating violence against women .But Cooper hided the fact that Britain had not done it .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15677
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by ljadw » 07 Sep 2021 16:46

Peter89 wrote:
07 Sep 2021 16:08
Are we still talking about WW2?
Yes .
1934 was the end of the pacification of Morocco by the French,no problem for Britain .
In 1934 Italy prevented a German take-over of Austria .
In 1935, Italy invaded Ethiopia to avenge its defeat of 1896, hoping that Britain would not oppose it,as Italy had saved Austria, but immediately the British media were full of indignation and there was almost war between Britain and Italy .
And in 2021 a lot of people in Britain do not understand why Italy was taking the side of Germany when Germany was winning in 1940 .
These people continue to refuse to admit that the role of Italy was essential for Germany and for Britain : without Italy, Germany would be forced to commit 50 divisions in southern Europe and this would make Barbarossa impossible ,but still, the British government,full of 18th century bias and contempt,refused any negotiation to prevent Italy from joining Germany .

Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2792
Joined: 06 Jan 2006 12:24
Location: London

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Gooner1 » 07 Sep 2021 16:51

ljadw wrote:
07 Sep 2021 16:46
And in 2021 a lot of people in Britain do not understand why Italy was taking the side of Germany when Germany was winning in 1940 .
And in 1940 a lot of people in Italy did not understand why Italy was taking the side of Germany either.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3776
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Germany could win Barbarossa by suppressing Italy

Post by Takao » 07 Sep 2021 17:40

ljadw wrote:
07 Sep 2021 16:46
Peter89 wrote:
07 Sep 2021 16:08
Are we still talking about WW2?
Yes .
1934 was the end of the pacification of Morocco by the French,no problem for Britain .
In 1934 Italy prevented a German take-over of Austria .
In 1935, Italy invaded Ethiopia to avenge its defeat of 1896, hoping that Britain would not oppose it,as Italy had saved Austria, but immediately the British media were full of indignation and there was almost war between Britain and Italy .
And in 2021 a lot of people in Britain do not understand why Italy was taking the side of Germany when Germany was winning in 1940 .
These people continue to refuse to admit that the role of Italy was essential for Germany and for Britain : without Italy, Germany would be forced to commit 50 divisions in southern Europe and this would make Barbarossa impossible ,but still, the British government,full of 18th century bias and contempt,refused any negotiation to prevent Italy from joining Germany .
So...if you save someone's life, then it is OK to murder another person

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. Does that make me racist?

Return to “What if”