Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
glenn239
Member
Posts: 5313
Joined: 29 Apr 2005 01:20
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by glenn239 » 15 Jun 2021 21:39

Rob Stuart wrote:
15 Jun 2021 18:28
What is your brother talking about when he says that "the Betty was really light"? Is he talking about its empty weight? (Francillon puts the empty weight of the G4M1 at 6800 kg (about 15,000 lb). Osamu Tagaya puts it at 7000 kg.)
I can ask, but what I assume is that the Betty was 15,000 lbs (empty) on 3,060 horsepower while the B-25B's used on the Doolittle Raid were 19,480lbs (empty) on 2,700lbs horsepower. Betty had a better horsepower to weight ratio. (The B-25C had upgraded engines but I checked Wiki, and the B model was used).

And this brings up a serious problem in IJN bomber design philosophy in WW2. The Betty was actually a honey of a bomber in potential if they'd armored it properly and forgotten about trying to eek every ounce of long range out of it.
Also, the question is not whether or not a G4M1 could take off from a carrier with "a reasonable fuel and bomb load". The "what if" proposes that each G4M1 would carry a full load of fuel and bombs, and Francillon puts its loaded weight at 9500 kg (about 21,000 lb). The G4M1 could not be lightened by removing armour, since it had none, so probably the only way to lighten it would be to remove some or all of the defensive armament plus the associated gunners and ammo.
Dunno about the full-up weight issue. I don't think the OP's proposal can work because the IJN isn't sailing a carrier that close to the West Coast.

Cantankerous
Member
Posts: 515
Joined: 01 Sep 2019 21:22
Location: Newport Coast

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by Cantankerous » 11 Aug 2021 20:50

glenn239 wrote:
15 Jun 2021 21:39
Rob Stuart wrote:
15 Jun 2021 18:28
What is your brother talking about when he says that "the Betty was really light"? Is he talking about its empty weight? (Francillon puts the empty weight of the G4M1 at 6800 kg (about 15,000 lb). Osamu Tagaya puts it at 7000 kg.)
I can ask, but what I assume is that the Betty was 15,000 lbs (empty) on 3,060 horsepower while the B-25B's used on the Doolittle Raid were 19,480lbs (empty) on 2,700lbs horsepower. Betty had a better horsepower to weight ratio. (The B-25C had upgraded engines but I checked Wiki, and the B model was used).

And this brings up a serious problem in IJN bomber design philosophy in WW2. The Betty was actually a honey of a bomber in potential if they'd armored it properly and forgotten about trying to eek every ounce of long range out of it.
Also, the question is not whether or not a G4M1 could take off from a carrier with "a reasonable fuel and bomb load". The "what if" proposes that each G4M1 would carry a full load of fuel and bombs, and Francillon puts its loaded weight at 9500 kg (about 21,000 lb). The G4M1 could not be lightened by removing armour, since it had none, so probably the only way to lighten it would be to remove some or all of the defensive armament plus the associated gunners and ammo.
Dunno about the full-up weight issue. I don't think the OP's proposal can work because the IJN isn't sailing a carrier that close to the West Coast.
Even if stripped of unnecessary equipment, the G4M would not have had the range to attack Washington DC and only would have had enough range to hit Beijing or any cities in eastern Australia.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 8708
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Aug 2021 15:12

glenn239 wrote:
15 Jun 2021 21:39
... I can ask, but what I assume is that the Betty was 15,000 lbs (empty) on 3,060 horsepower while the B-25B's used on the Doolittle Raid were 19,480lbs (empty) on 2,700lbs horsepower. Betty had a better horsepower to weight ratio. (The B-25C had upgraded engines but I checked Wiki, and the B model was used).
In his bio Dolittle makes the point he & his engineers spent a lot of time detuning the engines to squeeze the maximum range out. When flown from the Hornet the motors were far from factory spec settings. I'm wondering the Japanese would do the same in this hypothetical effort?

glenn239
Member
Posts: 5313
Joined: 29 Apr 2005 01:20
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by glenn239 » 16 Aug 2021 18:08

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
16 Aug 2021 15:12
In his bio Dolittle makes the point he & his engineers spent a lot of time detuning the engines to squeeze the maximum range out. When flown from the Hornet the motors were far from factory spec settings. I'm wondering the Japanese would do the same in this hypothetical effort?
Good question. Japanese staff planning was all over the map in WW2.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 8708
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 18 Aug 2021 18:33

It's more of a engineering thing. Much of that came from Dolittes education in air engineering and time in the fuel industry.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4762
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by OpanaPointer » 18 Aug 2021 19:59

The hypothetical raid would have to bypass several airdromes, if they were lucky. Getting past Chicago would have been ... fun.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 8708
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 20 Aug 2021 16:21

Lost over the midwest they bomb Peoria as the fuel runs out.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 4762
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by OpanaPointer » 20 Aug 2021 18:13

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
20 Aug 2021 16:21
Lost over the midwest they bomb Peoria as the fuel runs out.
We retaliate by bombing Sheboygan.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 8708
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Japanese carry out their own Doolittle Raid & bomb Washington DC

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 21 Aug 2021 12:06

Or Dayton.

Return to “What if”