The Holocaust happens with a defeated Soviet Union?

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Pods
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The Holocaust happens with a defeated Soviet Union?

Post by Pods » 19 Jul 2021 01:47

There is a certain historiographical consensus that the intention of the Nazis was to deport the Jews out of Europe and only after this became an impossibility did they decide to exterminate them.

In this sense, the Nazis had plans to deport the Jews to Siberia. If the Soviet Union had been defeated, do you think the final Jewish solution would have been deportation to Siberia instead of physical extermination?

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TheMarcksPlan
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Re: The Holocaust happens with a defeated Soviet Union?

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 19 Jul 2021 03:48

Pods wrote:
19 Jul 2021 01:47
There is a certain historiographical consensus that the intention of the Nazis was to deport the Jews out of Europe and only after this became an impossibility did they decide to exterminate them.

In this sense, the Nazis had plans to deport the Jews to Siberia. If the Soviet Union had been defeated, do you think the final Jewish solution would have been deportation to Siberia instead of physical extermination?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

The murder of Jewish people well under way during the first months of Barbarossa when Germany still assumed Soviet defeat. It was not yet the post-Wannsee top-down programmatic and explicit Final Solution but there's little practical difference. Contemporary scholarship on whether the Holocaust was planned is resolving towards a synthesis wherein that question makes little difference to the death toll, IMJ. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functio ... ism_debate

So in short, no. It is a temptation for anyone arguing the Germans could have won also to argue that some leavening of the consequences of that victory would have ensued, just to make the military discussions more palatable. The temptation must be resisted.
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

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TheMarcksPlan
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Re: The Holocaust happens with a defeated Soviet Union?

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 19 Jul 2021 04:25

Pods wrote:
19 Jul 2021 01:47
There is a certain historiographical consensus that the intention of the Nazis was to deport the Jews out of Europe and only after this became an impossibility did they decide to exterminate them.
Can you cite a single serious scholar who actually believes this? The Madagascar Plan wasn't even seriously raised until after France's defeat.

You're inventing a "consensus" without a single citation, in the face overwhelming consensus that the Nazis either didn't know what they were going to do but it wouldn't be good ("gradualism" approach) or planned all along to exterminate ("intentionalist" approach). You're treading dangerously close to spreading mis-information about the Holocaust in violation of forum rules and I would advise that, before posting something this mis-informed, you do 5 minutes of reading.
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

KDF33
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Re: The Holocaust happens with a defeated Soviet Union?

Post by KDF33 » 19 Jul 2021 04:59

Whether or not Germany deported the Jewish people to Siberia or to extermination camps, the end result would have been liquidation. Indeed, Barbarossa itself was expected to lead to an even larger genocide than the Holocaust.

Therefore, the point is moot. Barbarossa was a moment of radicalization for the regime, whether or not the anticipated quick victory materialized.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: The Holocaust happens with a defeated Soviet Union?

Post by Terry Duncan » 19 Jul 2021 06:46

This is not a suitable topic for a what if, even if some basic research had been done first and the rules of the site also checked, and as it has been perfectly well answered already the topic is locked.

Terry

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