Alternative Artillery of the 20th Century

[Carl Schwamberger]

The US M2 4.2" used a rifled barrel and that's WW 2 vintage.

Technically it was adopted circa 1928, but I nitpick.

[nuyt]

Good points about the 120mm mortars.
Even if not rifled (not sure about this), the 120mm Brandt 1935, its Soviet sister M1938, that one's German sister Granatwerfer 42 plus the Finnish indigenous 120mm Tampella of 1940, all appeared to have been formidable weapons: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MORTARS6.htm

[stg 44]

Though this is probably outside the scope of the OP, the German 50mm mortar could have been radically improved by 'commando-izing' it, which should cut them weight by 60% at a limited cost in accuracy. Having a light mortar that is a slightly better version of the British 2 inch mortar would have been pretty helpful given the throwing weight relative to rifle grenades or the 'sturmpistole'.

I'm also partial to the French 50mm light mortar due to the light weight of both the mortar and shells:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Gre ... C3%A8le_37

Though it probably was better as a squad weapon in lieu of a rifle grenadier.

Having the 81mm 'short' mortar pre-war war would have been pretty helpful too, as it was light enough to be used at the company level and the range and throwing weight were superior to the 60mm company mortar.

Same with the long range 81mm developed at the end of the war, which used a much lighter base plate, extended barrel, and more aerodynamic shells.
IIRC the range was 1.5 km longer as a result and it still was lighter than the standard GrW. 34.
Will have to try to find a link that shows it.

There was also a 150mm mortar developed during the war, but it was a towed model and considered too heavy for the range and payload. As a self propelled weapon though I think it would have been excellent, a good replacement for the self propelled 150mm infantry gun, the Grille.
https://www.armedconflicts.com/15-cm-Gr ... tar-t26906

Skoda also created a 210mm mortar in late 1944 that got very limited combat use at the end of the war, that would have been useful if available earlier:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_cm_GrW_69

[nuyt]

US also tested the Brandt 47mm mortar, info can be found here:
Infantry Board to the Chief of Infantry "Report of Test: Brandt 47mm Mortar, 17 July 1936" TMs, App.B, File 0878, Box 49, RG 177, National Archives
The Dutch colonial Army may have been the only customer as of 1941, they ordered hundreds, but possibly just a few arrived. The IJA captured a handfull and sent some back to Japan for testing.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Still searching for examples of rifled mortars, other than the US M2. I had a vague idea the Soviet 16cm mortar was rifled, but its described as a smooth bore in the second or third hand sources.

To digress, in Korea 1985 I wandered into a ROK 107mm mortar position. They were equipped with the M2. The data plates were 1944 & they had the Whirlpool corporation logo of the 1940s.

[stg 44]

Still searching for examples of rifled mortars, other than the US M2. I had a vague idea the Soviet 16cm mortar was rifled, but its described as a smooth bore in the second or third hand sources.

To digress, in Korea 1985 I wandered into a ROK 107mm mortar position. They were equipped with the M2. The data plates were 1944 & they had the Whirlpool corporation logo of the 1940s.

The Soviet 160mm was smoothbore.
The Japanese Type 89 grenade discharger was rifled. Schiessbeckers were rifled too.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Those two are a bit below what we have been discussing.

Im wondering what the French were thinking as the role of the 12cm mortar? The few references I've seen make allusions to a infantry regiment weapon. Given the lack of howitzers in the French infantry div. or DLM a hefty mortar like this makes a certain amount of sense as a supplement to the long range cannon they did field. Whatever they were thinking in the early 1930s when this was developed they did not follow thru since effectively they were not deployed.

[nuyt]

The French did not really adopt them, so not sure about their role in the French Army. It was a private venture by the Brandt firm, that sold weapons to everyone and his mother. I know the Dutch KNIL in Indonesia wanted to use the 120mm Brandt in the role as howitzer, they ordered at least 24 that did not arrive in time.

There were also two Spanish 120mm mortars from the late 1930s, plus a 240mm one: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=182486&start=15

Like I said, whether or not rifled, formidable weapons...

[Carl Schwamberger]

I suspect the focus on range in most armies caused the mortar to be under appreciated through the interwar. It looks like Spains appreciation derives from its combat experience. Possibly the Rif War as well.

[stg 44]

Those two are a bit below what we have been discussing.

Sure, though the Japanese used their 50mm grenade discharger like everyone else used their 50mm mortars, so even though it had shorter range it was effectively a mortar in its role.

Im wondering what the French were thinking as the role of the 12cm mortar? The few references I've seen make allusions to a infantry regiment weapon. Given the lack of howitzers in the French infantry div. or DLM a hefty mortar like this makes a certain amount of sense as a supplement to the long range cannon they did field. Whatever they were thinking in the early 1930s when this was developed they did not follow thru since effectively they were not deployed.

There were two versions of the 1930s 120mm Brandt mortar, the infantry regiment heavy piece, which is what everyone else ended up using, and the 'artillery' piece that had a longer tube and the ability to take a heavier charge therefore had longer range. IIRC they were to be organized as a division asset like the Fallschirmjager later used their 120mm battalion.

Funding was the problem, the French started quite late in rearming so didn't have the time to tool up and build them as they really only started rearming rapidly in 1938.

[nuyt]

There were two versions of the 1930s 120mm Brandt mortar, the infantry regiment heavy piece, which is what everyone else ended up using, and the 'artillery' piece that had a longer tube and the ability to take a heavier charge therefore had longer range. IIRC they were to be organized as a division asset like the Fallschirmjager later used their 120mm battalion.

So which one did the French chose?

[Carl Schwamberger]

It does not look like either. But, Im not connecting to any really good French military websites this afternoon. So...

[stg 44]

There were two versions of the 1930s 120mm Brandt mortar, the infantry regiment heavy piece, which is what everyone else ended up using, and the 'artillery' piece that had a longer tube and the ability to take a heavier charge therefore had longer range. IIRC they were to be organized as a division asset like the Fallschirmjager later used their 120mm battalion.

So which one did the French chose?

Not sure.
viewtopic.php?t=230672
This is a translation from a now defuction French website:

The Brandt company developed a 120 mm tracked mortar in the years 39-40. This mortar could be either pulled by horses, broken down into loads carried on poles, or towed behind a passenger car, an half-track or a caterpillar.
It weighed 800 kg, fired at 7200 meters a 17 kg projectile loaded with 4275 g of explosive. It was built in series.
thanks for this reply, serial production was already underway in April 1940.

I assume this is the artillery model, as it was quite a bit heavier and longer range than the standard infantry 120mm mortar that became roughly standard for everyone who used it during the war.

It is true that everything has been turned upside down with the declaration of war, thank you for telling me this entry into production, moreover confirmed by SF in his last work where he specifies that each Ri had to be equipped with two pieces per echelon of the Regimental Cie of machinery, replacing the 81mm mortars.
It seems the Soviets obtained this mortar via Finland:
Commercial agreement, via Finland where the company Tampella had a license for Brandt mortars.
The agreement between Brandt and Tampella was a bit special in that Tampella was both a licensed manufacturer, and as such paid out 8% royalties to Brandt for its sales to the Finnish army, AND a subcontractor to Brandt for overseas sales, where Tampella mortars were sold as Brandt mortars. When the Winter War began, Brandt mortars manufactured for export by Tampella were requisitioned by the Finnish army which led to a commercial dispute between the two companies which would last until May 1942.
Specifications for Tampella (Brandt) Model 1935 120mm Heavy Duty Smooth Mortar are as follows:
Mass in firing order: 240 kg broken down into:
- tube: 85 kg;
- base plate: 90 kg;
- support stand: 65 kg.
Mass in running order (wheel support cradle): 350 kg
Mass of the front end bearing 12 full blows: 300 kg
Mass of the ammunition box carrying 16 full blows: 350 kg

The mortar can be automotive or horse drawn.

Range: + 7.000 m
Projectile mass: 15 kg (steel loaded with 4 kg of trotyle, cast iron loaded with 2 kg of trotyle); 13 kg ("extra hard" steel loaded with 2 kg of trotyle)
Rate of fire: 6 to 12 rounds / min

This is the infantry version.

There were two variants of the Brandt 120mm mortars, the one produced by Tampella, and later copied by the Soviets was the simpler, intended for infantry, while the heavier variant would have been more specifically designed for artillery.

The Finns will make modifications to the original model which will lead to the Tampella 120 Krh / 35/39 adopted by the Finnish army under the designation 120 Krh / 40 and sold to Sweden which will designate it 120 mm GrK m / 41. This variant was characterized compared to the original Brandt model by a lower mass, an improved base plate and a modified transport system.

[...]

The agreement between Brandt and Tampella dates from 1934. The Franco-Soviet rapprochement materialized with the signing of a non-aggression pact on November 29, 1932. A French military attaché, Colonel Mendras, was appointed to Moscow on March 2, 1933 followed by discussions on a bilateral Franco-Soviet mutual assistance pact in 1934 as well.

There was a transfer of technology via Finland, with the Model 1938 120 Mortar being an unlicensed but authorized copy of the French Model 1935 120 Mortar built in Finland by Tampella.

The Finnish 120 Krh / 40 presented notable improvements over the original French 1935 model and the Soviet 1938 model.

[nuyt]

Thanks!
This Tampella factory is very interesting, did some interesting artillery work as well, wonder if there was ever a good English language study on them...

[Carl Schwamberger]

Well, it looks like the French artillery leaders put a low priority on fielding a 120mm mortar, or even adopting it. Similarly they did not adopt a howitzer as the primary division cannon. The remaining 105mm Mle of 1913 were deployed as a reinforcing corps weapon. What they did put into production was the Canon de 105 L modèle 1936 Schneider. & that relatively late in the game. 160 were taken in by the French Army to September 1939, and a couple hundred more in the next ten months. Some sources claim the intent was to replace the 75mm cannon in the division with the Canon de 105, but I've not casually run across TO & E showing it in a divisions artillery. Given the funds this suggests they'd have reequipped first with the longer ranged Canon de 105 L.