Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

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daveshoup2MD
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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by daveshoup2MD » 24 Feb 2022 13:53

Ironmachine wrote:
24 Feb 2022 10:25
daveshoup2MD wrote:
Ironmachine wrote:Well, if we're going to list the German successes in amphibious warfare, don't forget Leros and Kos.
True, but the issues of unity of command and air superiority, which the Germans had over the Dodecanese in 1943 and the Axis would not have had over Malta-Gozo in 1942, would have had an impact. Conversely, the British on Malta-Gozo would have one job: kill as many Italians and Germans as possible.
Well, yes, of course. I didn't say anything to the contrary, did I?
However, I thought that those two German amphibious successes should be mentioned regarding your previous statement that
daveshoup2MD wrote:The Allies made such operations look "simple,"; the Axis never managed to do so, in any theater.
because, in fact, the Axis sometimes managed to do so, when the conditions were favourable to them, just like almost anyone.
Fair, but making things look simple with unity of command is certainly "simpler" then doing the same in coalition warfare.

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by Peter89 » 24 Feb 2022 18:07

daveshoup2MD wrote:
24 Feb 2022 13:53
Ironmachine wrote:
24 Feb 2022 10:25
daveshoup2MD wrote:
Ironmachine wrote:Well, if we're going to list the German successes in amphibious warfare, don't forget Leros and Kos.
True, but the issues of unity of command and air superiority, which the Germans had over the Dodecanese in 1943 and the Axis would not have had over Malta-Gozo in 1942, would have had an impact. Conversely, the British on Malta-Gozo would have one job: kill as many Italians and Germans as possible.
Well, yes, of course. I didn't say anything to the contrary, did I?
However, I thought that those two German amphibious successes should be mentioned regarding your previous statement that
daveshoup2MD wrote:The Allies made such operations look "simple,"; the Axis never managed to do so, in any theater.
because, in fact, the Axis sometimes managed to do so, when the conditions were favourable to them, just like almost anyone.
Fair, but making things look simple with unity of command is certainly "simpler" then doing the same in coalition warfare.
Not as if Allied coalition warfare went without any hiccups.

(We do not tend to judge that cooperation based on its worst moments.)
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by daveshoup2MD » 25 Feb 2022 05:59

Peter89 wrote:
24 Feb 2022 18:07
daveshoup2MD wrote:
24 Feb 2022 13:53
Ironmachine wrote:
24 Feb 2022 10:25
daveshoup2MD wrote:
Ironmachine wrote:Well, if we're going to list the German successes in amphibious warfare, don't forget Leros and Kos.
True, but the issues of unity of command and air superiority, which the Germans had over the Dodecanese in 1943 and the Axis would not have had over Malta-Gozo in 1942, would have had an impact. Conversely, the British on Malta-Gozo would have one job: kill as many Italians and Germans as possible.
Well, yes, of course. I didn't say anything to the contrary, did I?
However, I thought that those two German amphibious successes should be mentioned regarding your previous statement that
daveshoup2MD wrote:The Allies made such operations look "simple,"; the Axis never managed to do so, in any theater.
because, in fact, the Axis sometimes managed to do so, when the conditions were favourable to them, just like almost anyone.
Fair, but making things look simple with unity of command is certainly "simpler" then doing the same in coalition warfare.
Not as if Allied coalition warfare went without any hiccups.

(We do not tend to judge that cooperation based on its worst moments.)

Concur; it's very challenging, as history makes clear. The point in this posited case, of course, is that examples of successful Italo-German cooperation in an amphibious assault against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are ... limited, to be charitable. Losing the seaborne elements of MERCURY on their way to Crete, and ... what else?

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by Peter89 » 25 Feb 2022 07:31

daveshoup2MD wrote:
25 Feb 2022 05:59

Concur; it's very challenging, as history makes clear. The point in this posited case, of course, is that examples of successful Italo-German cooperation in an amphibious assault against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are ... limited, to be charitable. Losing the seaborne elements of MERCURY on their way to Crete, and ... what else?
The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Ironmachine
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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by Ironmachine » 25 Feb 2022 08:30

daveshoup2MD wrote:Concur; it's very challenging, as history makes clear. The point in this posited case, of course, is that examples of successful Italo-German cooperation in an amphibious assault against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are ... limited, to be charitable. Losing the seaborne elements of MERCURY on their way to Crete, and ... what else?
Actually, examples of Italo-German cooperation in an carried-out amphibious assault (successful or not) against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are... limited indeed. Drawing conclusions about future operations from such a small sample can be misleading.
On the other hand, it's not as if they could not learn from their previous mistakes.

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by Ironmachine » 25 Feb 2022 08:38

Peter89 wrote:The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources.
Maybe this one? The Axis and the intended invasion of Malta in 1942: A combined planning endeavor:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1003811.pdf

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by Peter89 » 25 Feb 2022 09:01

Ironmachine wrote:
25 Feb 2022 08:38
Peter89 wrote:The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources.
Maybe this one? The Axis and the intended invasion of Malta in 1942: A combined planning endeavor:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1003811.pdf
Yes exactly. This is basically the most read paper on the subject these days.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by daveshoup2MD » 26 Feb 2022 06:40

Peter89 wrote:
25 Feb 2022 09:01
Ironmachine wrote:
25 Feb 2022 08:38
Peter89 wrote:The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources.
Maybe this one? The Axis and the intended invasion of Malta in 1942: A combined planning endeavor:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1003811.pdf
Yes exactly. This is basically the most read paper on the subject these days.
Peter89 wrote:
25 Feb 2022 07:31
daveshoup2MD wrote:
25 Feb 2022 05:59

Concur; it's very challenging, as history makes clear. The point in this posited case, of course, is that examples of successful Italo-German cooperation in an amphibious assault against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are ... limited, to be charitable. Losing the seaborne elements of MERCURY on their way to Crete, and ... what else?
The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources
Planning an operation and executing are different things.

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by daveshoup2MD » 26 Feb 2022 06:43

Ironmachine wrote:
25 Feb 2022 08:30
daveshoup2MD wrote:Concur; it's very challenging, as history makes clear. The point in this posited case, of course, is that examples of successful Italo-German cooperation in an amphibious assault against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are ... limited, to be charitable. Losing the seaborne elements of MERCURY on their way to Crete, and ... what else?
Actually, examples of Italo-German cooperation in an carried-out amphibious assault (successful or not) against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are... limited indeed. Drawing conclusions about future operations from such a small sample can be misleading.
On the other hand, it's not as if they could not learn from their previous mistakes.
Well, at least it is evidence. The success of NEPTUNE and DRAGOON built on experience from SHINGLE, BRASSARD, AVALANCHE, BAYTOWN, and HUSKY, and multiple other operations going back to TORCH, WATCHTOWER, and IRONCLAD.

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by daveshoup2MD » 26 Feb 2022 06:55

Ironmachine wrote:
25 Feb 2022 08:38
Peter89 wrote:The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources.
Maybe this one? The Axis and the intended invasion of Malta in 1942: A combined planning endeavor:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1003811.pdf
Student
"had to report immediately to Hitler, at his headquarters in East Prussia. “I forbid you to return to Italy! You will stay in Berlin,” was the conclusion of his short interview with the Führer, during which Hitler expressed his complete mistrust for the Italians and their ability to conduct the planned operation.
When a senior partner in a coalition tells the junior partner "no" because said senior partner doesn't trust said junior partner - which is actually the partner with more lives on the line, paradoxically - one can call that cooperation many things, but "good" is not the first that comes to mind. ;)

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by Ironmachine » 26 Feb 2022 07:50

daveshoup2MD wrote:Well, at least it is evidence.
Evidence of what? Only of failure in a previous attempt. Certainly it is no evidence that any future amphibious invasion attempt is also doomed to fail.

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by Peter89 » 26 Feb 2022 14:23

daveshoup2MD wrote:
26 Feb 2022 06:40
Peter89 wrote:
25 Feb 2022 09:01
Ironmachine wrote:
25 Feb 2022 08:38
Peter89 wrote:The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources.
Maybe this one? The Axis and the intended invasion of Malta in 1942: A combined planning endeavor:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1003811.pdf
Yes exactly. This is basically the most read paper on the subject these days.
Peter89 wrote:
25 Feb 2022 07:31
daveshoup2MD wrote:
25 Feb 2022 05:59

Concur; it's very challenging, as history makes clear. The point in this posited case, of course, is that examples of successful Italo-German cooperation in an amphibious assault against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are ... limited, to be charitable. Losing the seaborne elements of MERCURY on their way to Crete, and ... what else?
The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources
Planning an operation and executing are different things.
I never said they could execute this plan, especially with the strategic environment they were in.
But they started to work on many aspects they ignored before. Crete and other examples were nothing like the Maltese operation in terms of CCC, training, tactics, combined arms planning, etc.

I am most familiar with Fallschirmjägers, and indeed they were more many times more effective on every level of combat than in 1941.

It is also undeniable that the Axis cooperation was at its high point in the summer of 1942. This was the year when German victory seemed plausible for all allies of Germany, and Germany became a bit more humble in the light of their repeated defeats. In 1943, when no one believed in a German victory anymore, Germany did not really cooperate, it dictated.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by daveshoup2MD » 27 Feb 2022 08:00

Ironmachine wrote:
26 Feb 2022 07:50
daveshoup2MD wrote:Well, at least it is evidence.
Evidence of what? Only of failure in a previous attempt. Certainly it is no evidence that any future amphibious invasion attempt is also doomed to fail.
It's not evidence that any future amphibious assault is going to succeed, is it?

Amphibious warfare is challenging, to put it mildly; amphibious warfare in a coalition even more so. The Axis record in both was poor, at best. The IJN suffered not one, but two defeats in opposed landings in 1941-42, and they had a better track record at that point than the KM or the RM. None of the Axis powers ever managed a joint and combined amphibious operation during the course of the conflict; the Japanese never had an ally worth the name in the Pacific, and the Germans and Italians balked the one time they tried to plan one.

Far stronger evidence of failure than success.

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by daveshoup2MD » 27 Feb 2022 08:03

Peter89 wrote:
26 Feb 2022 14:23
daveshoup2MD wrote:
26 Feb 2022 06:40
Peter89 wrote:
25 Feb 2022 09:01
Ironmachine wrote:
25 Feb 2022 08:38
Peter89 wrote:The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources.
Maybe this one? The Axis and the intended invasion of Malta in 1942: A combined planning endeavor:
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1003811.pdf
Yes exactly. This is basically the most read paper on the subject these days.
Peter89 wrote:
25 Feb 2022 07:31
daveshoup2MD wrote:
25 Feb 2022 05:59

Concur; it's very challenging, as history makes clear. The point in this posited case, of course, is that examples of successful Italo-German cooperation in an amphibious assault against a strongly-defended objective by Q2 1942 are ... limited, to be charitable. Losing the seaborne elements of MERCURY on their way to Crete, and ... what else?
The Italo-German cooperation was actually pretty good at the planned invasion of Malta in Q2 1942. I think someone quoted a paper about it which leads to various other interesting sources
Planning an operation and executing are different things.
I never said they could execute this plan, especially with the strategic environment they were in.
But they started to work on many aspects they ignored before. Crete and other examples were nothing like the Maltese operation in terms of CCC, training, tactics, combined arms planning, etc.

I am most familiar with Fallschirmjägers, and indeed they were more many times more effective on every level of combat than in 1941.

It is also undeniable that the Axis cooperation was at its high point in the summer of 1942. This was the year when German victory seemed plausible for all allies of Germany, and Germany became a bit more humble in the light of their repeated defeats. In 1943, when no one believed in a German victory anymore, Germany did not really cooperate, it dictated.
The sum total of Germany's experience in amphibious operations during the war by 1942 was Norway and Crete. The sum total of Italy's experience at the same point was nil.

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Re: Taking Gozo as a siege warfare alternative to C3/Herkules

Post by Ironmachine » 27 Feb 2022 08:17

daveshoup2MD wrote:It's not evidence that any future amphibious assault is going to succeed, is it?
It is not evidence of any future amphibious assault's result, either success or failure. You seem to fail to understand what "evidence" means.

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