A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

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Peter89
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Peter89 » 28 May 2022 10:55

ljadw wrote:
28 May 2022 09:29
Peter89 wrote:
22 May 2022 12:09
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
22 May 2022 11:13
If I can just throw in something related to the Panzer 3/4...

I think having different suspensions on the two tanks seems a little weird, if both chassis are to be built at the same time, at least standardize the suspension mounts and tracks and stuff. They weigh nearly the same for the most part anyways.

It'd also save some internal space for the Panzer 3, giving it more fuel, ammo, etc.
This is a wider problem with the strategic situation. The Germans should have made a complete phase-out and phase-in of "new" technologies from 1941-1943, but for various reasons it simply didn't happen. Mostly because before Barbarossa, they didn't feel their weapons are atrociously inferior and after Barbarossa they couldn't stop the production lines. Tanks were a prime example of this, but if we think about the fact that the Wehrmacht still used the same designs in 1944 as in 1939 it shows a tendency. The the 37 mm PAK, Do 17, He 111, Ju 87, Ju 52, Me 110, Panzer II, T 35 / 38, etc. were obsolete by 1941 but the Germans didn't stop production, and the new models were either crap (like Me 210 or He 177), or unreliable or came too late. Even the better designs could not advance into mass production because of the constant pressing need for new machines.
It is questionable to say that the Pz II was obsolete : obsolete depends on the mission and on the enemy and he weapons he could use .The Pz II could always be used for other aims, in other occasions .
It is also questionable to say that the German weapons were inferior during Barbarossa .
If it is questionable, then please do make your case
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

ljadw
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 28 May 2022 12:05

It was YOU who said that the German weapons were inferior and that the Pz II was obsolete .i did not say that they were superior .
Where are the proofs for the claim that the Pz II was obsolete ?
Loss figures do not prove this .
From 22 June to 31 December 1941,the Germans lost in the East
341 Pz I
398 Pz II
637 Pz III
721 Pz III ( t )
320 Pz IV
The Soviets lost in the same period 13405 tanks ( German figures ) .Does this prove that the Soviet tanks were inferior/obsolete ? Of course not .
The Soviets lost much more pieces of artillery than the Germans in the same period . But that is not a proof that the Soviet artillery was inferior to the German one .
Are there other proofs for your claims ? If so ,which ones ?

ljadw
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 28 May 2022 12:13

And, if the Me 210 was crap,why did Hungary build a lot of them and used them til March 1945 ?

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Destroyer500
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 28 May 2022 16:44

The panzer 2 was used in light scouting and anti infantry and i think even anti partisan roles and there was even an H variant supposed to give it the late panzer 3s firepower (5cm L/60).Of course here im not even mentioning some TD variants it had.Hell there was even a panzer 1 ausf F that had an 80mm frontal plate and if they had given it a 20mm-30mm mg instead of the twin mg 34s it would even have some light anti tank capability.

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 28 May 2022 16:51

ljadw wrote:
28 May 2022 12:05
It was YOU who said that the German weapons were inferior and that the Pz II was obsolete .i did not say that they were superior .
Where are the proofs for the claim that the Pz II was obsolete ?
Loss figures do not prove this .
From 22 June to 31 December 1941,the Germans lost in the East
341 Pz I
398 Pz II
637 Pz III
721 Pz III ( t )
320 Pz IV
The Soviets lost in the same period 13405 tanks ( German figures ) .Does this prove that the Soviet tanks were inferior/obsolete ? Of course not .
The Soviets lost much more pieces of artillery than the Germans in the same period . But that is not a proof that the Soviet artillery was inferior to the German one .
Are there other proofs for your claims ? If so ,which ones ?
Losses without context are meaningless. You, of all people, should know this.

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 28 May 2022 16:52

ljadw wrote:
28 May 2022 12:13
And, if the Me 210 was crap,why did Hungary build a lot of them and used them til March 1945 ?
179 is a lot? Not in my book it isn't.

ljadw
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 28 May 2022 19:57

Takao wrote:
28 May 2022 16:51
ljadw wrote:
28 May 2022 12:05
It was YOU who said that the German weapons were inferior and that the Pz II was obsolete .i did not say that they were superior .
Where are the proofs for the claim that the Pz II was obsolete ?
Loss figures do not prove this .
From 22 June to 31 December 1941,the Germans lost in the East
341 Pz I
398 Pz II
637 Pz III
721 Pz III ( t )
320 Pz IV
The Soviets lost in the same period 13405 tanks ( German figures ) .Does this prove that the Soviet tanks were inferior/obsolete ? Of course not .
The Soviets lost much more pieces of artillery than the Germans in the same period . But that is not a proof that the Soviet artillery was inferior to the German one .
Are there other proofs for your claims ? If so ,which ones ?
Losses without context are meaningless. You, of all people, should know this.
I asked for proofs for the claim that he Pz II was obsolete and losses are not a proof .Thus I am still waiting for the proofs that the Pz II was obsolete .
Higher / lower speed or mobility or armor are also no indications of superiority or inferiority or obsolete .

ljadw
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 28 May 2022 20:06

Takao wrote:
28 May 2022 16:52
ljadw wrote:
28 May 2022 12:13
And, if the Me 210 was crap,why did Hungary build a lot of them and used them til March 1945 ?
179 is a lot? Not in my book it isn't.
In my book 179 is a lot .
But whatever, why did the Hungarians build 179 crap aircraft and used them til March 1945 ?
And : the performances of an aircraft,tank,gun did not depend alone on the qualities,defaults of the aircraft, tank,gun,but also on the qualities,defaults of the crew, and on the qualities,defaults of the enemy aircraft,gun,tank and their crew, on the mission,terrain,weather ,on the qualities,defaults of the supply services,etc :a Pz II could perform better than a Tiger or a Sherman tank,a Me 210 could do better than a Spitfire...
Would the Panther tanks have done better at Dunkirk than the Pz III tanks ?

Peter89
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Peter89 » 28 May 2022 21:14

Takao wrote:
28 May 2022 16:52
ljadw wrote:
28 May 2022 12:13
And, if the Me 210 was crap,why did Hungary build a lot of them and used them til March 1945 ?
179 is a lot? Not in my book it isn't.
The Me 210 was a failed project and that was the reason why it was sold to Hungary.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

ljadw
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 29 May 2022 11:42

And why did the Hungarians buy this crap?

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 29 May 2022 12:06

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 11:42
And why did the Hungarians buy this crap?
For the same reason they bought & produced this crap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%81VAG_H%C3%A9ja

Peter89
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Peter89 » 29 May 2022 14:15

Takao wrote:
29 May 2022 12:06
ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 11:42
And why did the Hungarians buy this crap?
For the same reason they bought & produced this crap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%81VAG_H%C3%A9ja
...and because the Germans didn't share their top notch technology.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

ljadw
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 29 May 2022 14:36

Takao wrote:
29 May 2022 12:06
ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 11:42
And why did the Hungarians buy this crap?
For the same reason they bought & produced this crap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%81VAG_H%C3%A9ja
That this Hungarian-Italian aircraft had shortcomings and was no longer regarded as suitable for combat against modern Soviet fighters,does not mean that it was crap .Besides : not all Soviet fighters were modern .
And, as I already said, success or failure of a fighter does not depend only on good/bad points of the aircraft itself : without a pilot and technicians, an aircraft can do nothing .

ljadw
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 29 May 2022 14:59

Other points :
The son of Horthy was killed in an air accident flying a Heja (also called Re.2000 ) but it was not the fault of the aircraft: Horthy made a mistake (Source : Am Himmel Europas )
About the Me 210 (which caused the LW big difficulties ) : Hungary produced a modified
version of it ,which gave good results :270 of these aircraft were build,of which 110 were going to the LW.(Same source )
On 9 March 1945 8 Hungarian Bf 109 attacked a group of 25 Russian bomber and 16 Russian fighters and they shot 3 Russian aircraft while they had no losses (Same source ) .
Thus,to talk about crap ,is very questionable .

Peter89
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Peter89 » 29 May 2022 16:43

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:59
Thus,to talk about crap ,is very questionable .
I couldn't agree more.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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