A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 29 May 2022 16:47

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:59
Other points :
The son of Horthy was killed in an air accident flying a Heja (also called Re.2000 ) but it was not the fault of the aircraft: Horthy made a mistake (Source : Am Himmel Europas )
It has also been said, that the added armor plate behind the pilot( without additional weight compensation forward) adversely effected the Heja's CoG(making it more prone to stalling), this would be the fault of the aircraft.

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:59
About the Me 210 (which caused the LW big difficulties ) : Hungary produced a modified
version of it ,which gave good results :270 of these aircraft were build,of which 110 were going to the LW.(Same source )
Pray tell, what were these "good results."

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:59
On 9 March 1945 8 Hungarian Bf 109 attacked a group of 25 Russian bomber and 16 Russian fighters and they shot 3 Russian aircraft while they had no losses (Same source ) .
That is absolutely wonderful!

Now, what does the Bf 109 have to do with the Heja or Me-210?

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 29 May 2022 17:05

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:36
That this Hungarian-Italian aircraft had shortcomings and was no longer regarded as suitable for combat against modern Soviet fighters,does not mean that it was crap .Besides : not all Soviet fighters were modern .
That would mean that it was obsolete as a fighter.

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:36
And, as I already said, success or failure of a fighter does not depend only on good/bad points of the aircraft itself : without a pilot and technicians, an aircraft can do nothing .
You forgot the most important part...The opposition.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 29 May 2022 18:27

Takao wrote:
29 May 2022 17:05
ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:36
That this Hungarian-Italian aircraft had shortcomings and was no longer regarded as suitable for combat against modern Soviet fighters,does not mean that it was crap .Besides : not all Soviet fighters were modern .
That would mean that it was obsolete as a fighter.

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:36
And, as I already said, success or failure of a fighter does not depend only on good/bad points of the aircraft itself : without a pilot and technicians, an aircraft can do nothing .
You forgot the most important part...The opposition.
I did not forget it : I mentioned it in a former post .

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 29 May 2022 18:37

Takao wrote:
29 May 2022 16:47
ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:59


ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:59
About the Me 210 (which caused the LW big difficulties ) : Hungary produced a modified
version of it ,which gave good results :270 of these aircraft were build,of which 110 were going to the LW.(Same source )
Pray tell, what were these "good results."

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:59
On 9 March 1945 8 Hungarian Bf 109 attacked a group of 25 Russian bomber and 16 Russian fighters and they shot 3 Russian aircraft while they had no losses (Same source ) .
That is absolutely wonderful!

Now, what does the Bf 109 have to do with the Heja or Me-210?
The Bf-109 was a prewar aircraft ,but not obsolete .The Boston Bomber was an other name for the American Douglas A -20.
And it has been claimed that the Hungarians bought/produced crap .
The results of the Bf-109 prove that this claim is not correct .
The same for the Me-210 produced by Hungary : if the LW accepted 110 of them, this indicates that the negative comments about this aircraft are greatly exaggerated .

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Peter89 » 29 May 2022 21:14

Takao wrote:
29 May 2022 17:05
ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 14:36
And, as I already said, success or failure of a fighter does not depend only on good/bad points of the aircraft itself : without a pilot and technicians, an aircraft can do nothing .
You forgot the most important part...The opposition.
The Hungarian aircraft maintenance crew training from 1941 was integrated into the German like none other. The school in Újvidék was essentially a German school with extra steps.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 30 May 2022 09:46

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 18:37
The Bf-109 was a prewar aircraft ,but not obsolete .
The prewar Bf-109A is not the same aircraft as the wartime Bf-109K.

You are aware that near about all American aircraft that fought in WW2 were prewar designs.

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 18:37
The Boston Bomber was an other name for the American Douglas A -20.
The Boston Bomber was another name for the DB-7. The Boston was originally DB-7s ordered by the French, then taken over by the British. The A-20 was a USAAC modification of the DB-7.

Please show me where Hungary purchased DB-7s please.

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 18:37
And it has been claimed that the Hungarians bought/produced crap . The results of the Bf-109 prove that this claim is not correct
It has been claimed that the Me-210 was crap & the Heja was crap. The results of the Bf-109 do not prove that either the Me-210 was a good aircraft or that the Heja was a good aircraft. The results of the Bf-109 only prove that the Bf-109 was a good aircraft.

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 18:37
The same for the Me-210 produced by Hungary : if the LW accepted 110 of them, this indicates that the negative comments about this aircraft are greatly exaggerated .
Actually, the Luftwaffe accepting a crap aircraft only proves they were desperate.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2022 13:53

I never said that the Hungarians bought the Boston Bomber : the Russians/bought/received him .
The Bf-190 was a prewar aircraft : it was used in Spain .

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2022 14:14

There is no proof that the Hungarian version of the Me-210 was crap : its performances against the Soviets were as good as those of the Bf-190 .
From ''Am Himmel Europas ''P 140
''Bei den Ungarn war die äuserst manövrierfähige Maschine,die sie als Aufklärer,Schnellbomber,Nachtjäger und Zerstörer einsetzten,sehr beliebt .''
Translation :
" The Hungarians liked very much the very maneuverable aircraft,which they committed as Reconnaissance Aircraft,Fast Bomber, Night Fighter and Destroyer .''
This proves that he was not crap .
The 110 Me-210 that the LW accepted were not the German versions, but the better Hungarian versions .

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 30 May 2022 15:59

ljadw wrote:
30 May 2022 13:53
I never said that the Hungarians bought the Boston Bomber : the Russians/bought/received him .
The Bf-190 was a prewar aircraft : it was used in Spain .
Again, wonderful...You do know we are not discussing what aircraft were exported to Russia? My God, your not just moving the goal outside the stadium, but, out side the stadium, on to the expressway, to the airport, aboard a plane, and to another country.

FYI, there is no such beastie as the Bf-190...Do you mean the Bf-109X?

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2022 18:49

Takao wrote:
30 May 2022 15:59
ljadw wrote:
30 May 2022 13:53
I never said that the Hungarians bought the Boston Bomber : the Russians/bought/received him .
The Bf-190 was a prewar aircraft : it was used in Spain .
Again, wonderful...You do know we are not discussing what aircraft were exported to Russia? My God, your not just moving the goal outside the stadium, but, out side the stadium, on to the expressway, to the airport, aboard a plane, and to another country.

FYI, there is no such beastie as the Bf-190...Do you mean the Bf-109X?
You asked for information about the Boston Bombers that were bought by Hungary ; I answered that they were bought by the Soviets .

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 30 May 2022 19:58

ljadw wrote:
30 May 2022 18:49
You asked for information about the Boston Bombers that were bought by Hungary ; I answered that they were bought by the Soviets .
Why did you mention Boston Bombers at all...when we are discussing Hungarian aircraft?

Not that any of this has anything to do with the Panzer III...

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 31 May 2022 14:01

Takao wrote:
30 May 2022 19:58
ljadw wrote:
30 May 2022 18:49
You asked for information about the Boston Bombers that were bought by Hungary ; I answered that they were bought by the Soviets .
Why did you mention Boston Bombers at all...when we are discussing Hungarian aircraft?

Not that any of this has anything to do with the Panzer III...
The Me 210 was first mentioned on post 263 ,where you can read that it was crap .
Post 263 was not my post .
And I mentioned the Boston Bomber to prove that the Hungarians used at the end of the war aircraft that were not crap : if the Be 109 was not crap, so was the Me 210 .
The Bf 109 was successful against Russian and American aircraft, the Me 210 was successful against Russian aircraft .
Thus the claim that Hungary bought and received crap is not correct .And what Hitler said about the Hungarian air force was irrelevant .
The Germans did not give,sell crap weapons to their allies .
It is even very doubtful that there is something as a crap weapon .

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 31 May 2022 14:05

In April 1944 Hejas, Me 210 and Bf 109 shot 6 US aircraft in an air battle .

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 31 May 2022 18:24

ljadw wrote:
31 May 2022 14:05
In April 1944 Hejas, Me 210 and Bf 109 shot 6 US aircraft in an air battle .
Meh...On April 22, 1944, German Me-410s shot down 12.

Keep trying.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by paulrward » 31 May 2022 19:35

Hello All :

There has been a great deal of back and forth regarding the Messerschmitt 210 - most of it
apparently by people who do not know the entire story of this aircraft.

Following the debacle in the Battle of Britain with the Me 110, the Luftwaffe realized that
it was not capable of defending itself, and thus could not fulfill the role of the 'Heavy Fighter'.
The design and prototyping of the Me 210 was well underway, and on that basis, the Luftwaffe
ordered it into production. It was at this point that the problems began with the aircraft,
primarily in the areas of Stability and Control. The 210 was unstable in the Pitch Axis, and
was very cranky at low speeds. Like Take-off and Landing......

After some delay, Messerschmitt finally resolved the issues with the 210 by modifying the
fuselage, increasing it's length aft of the wing by about one meter - this immediately resolved
the handling issues, and the revised aircraft, designated the Me 210 C, was accepted for
production. The problem was, the Reputation of the Me 210 had been so muddied by the
problems with the early versions that flight crews objected to flying it. In addition, several
of the Versuchs aircraft were tested with the DB 603 instead of the DB 605, as well as having
been fitted with a new wing with a revised planform that was intended to further improve
the handling characteristics ( the new wing had a reduced sweep-back, and was similar in
planform to an Me 110 wing, but with a shorter wing span )

As a result, the now completely revised aircraft was designated the Me 410 , and went into
production with good effect - the Luftwaffe crews liked it, and it did sterling service on the
Eastern Front.

But, the Messerschmitt Plant had a full set of jigs and fixtures, and a lot of parts and sub-
assemblies for the aborted Me 210 C. What to do........ Well, the Hungarians need a fighter,
they are on the Eastern Front, and the whole kit and kaboodle was sold to Hungary, who set
up a production line, and began assembling Me 210 C's - a quite serviceable aircraft, which
the Hungarian Crews liked. And, to fill the gap in Luftwaffe numbers until the Me 410 was
in full production, the Luftwaffe re-purchased some of the Me 210 C's from Hungary, and
put them into Luftwaffe service. Where they were a very useful stop-gap until the more
powerful Me 410 became available, after which they served at the Zerstorerschulen to allow
the new pilots to get some ' stick time' on an aircraft that was very similar to the Me 410.

So, it cannot be said that the Germans gave the Hungarians ' a crap weapon ' - in fact, they
gave them the production capability of making what was a state-of-the-art aircraft that,
had the Hungarians wished, might even have been upgraded to the latest -410 standard.


Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
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