A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 01 Jun 2022 18:50

ljadw wrote:
01 Jun 2022 18:34
I have not to prove that the Semple tank was a'' good'' tank,because I never said that it was a ''good '' tank.You said that it was crap ,thus the onus is for you .
Besides : there is no such thing as a good tank, a better tank or a crap tank .
To give tanks good or bad points is a totally wrong practice .
If the tanks were not crap, they would have remained as tanks. But, alas, they were crap as tanks, and as such reconfigured.
Of the 3 made, 2 were turned into tractors & 1 was turned into a bulldozer. They were sufficient as tractors & bulldozers, but crap as tanks.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 02 Jun 2022 07:15

That is not correct .
The Semple tanks were build to be used only in case of a Japanese invasion of New Zealand, as there was no invasion, there was no longer any utility for them ,thus they were converted in tractors and bulldozer.
They were never used as tanks, thus you can't say that they were crap .

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 02 Jun 2022 10:32

ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 07:15
That is not correct .
This is incorrect.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 07:15
The Semple tanks were build to be used only in case of a Japanese invasion of New Zealand, as there was no invasion, there was no longer any utility for them ,thus they were converted in tractors and bulldozer.
A good tank is a good tank anywhere, any time. This statement proves that the Semple was a crap tank...which is as I said, they were not useful as tanks, so they were converted into something useful. If they had been good tanks, they would not have been converted. However, they were crap as tanks, so they were converted.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 07:15
They were never used as tanks, thus you can't say that they were crap .
Sure I can...NZ had plenty of chances to use them as tanks, after all, the war did not end in 1942. However, NZ knew they were crap, and did not use them as tanks. If they had been good tanks, NZ would have used them as tanks. NZ never used them as tanks, because they were crap.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 02 Jun 2022 15:19

1 There is no such thing as a good tank . What are the needed qualifications to be a '' good '' tank ?
2 If needed the Semple tank would have been used outside NZ .
3 There is no proof that the Panther or Tiger tanks would have done better in May/June 1940 than the Pz 2,thus it is not correct to say that the Pz2 was crap .
4 There were 3 Semple tanks because there was nothing else available .
5 The Semple tanks were basic, but they had very simple supply demands .

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 02 Jun 2022 17:31

ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
1 There is no such thing as a good tank . What are the needed qualifications to be a '' good '' tank ?
Sure there is...Ask anybody...You will get an answer.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
2 If needed the Semple tank would have been used outside NZ .
There was no need for tanks, outside of NZ, between 1942 & 1945? I am rather certain there was...
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
3 There is no proof that the Panther or Tiger tanks would have done better in May/June 1940 than the Pz 2,thus it is not correct to say that the Pz2 was crap .
There is proof that the Panzer III & IV were replacing the Panzer II. If the Panzer II was not crap, it would not be being replaced.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
4 There were 3 Semple tanks because there was nothing else available .
There were 3 Semple tanks, because they were crap & NZ stopped building them. If the Semple tank was the least bit useful, NZ would have built more of them.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
5 The Semple tanks were basic, but they had very simple supply demands .
So do rocks...Do you consider rocks to be tanks?

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 02 Jun 2022 18:53

Takao wrote:
02 Jun 2022 17:31
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
1 There is no such thing as a good tank . What are the needed qualifications to be a '' good '' tank ?
Sure there is...Ask anybody...You will get an answer.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
2 If needed the Semple tank would have been used outside NZ .
There was no need for tanks, outside of NZ, between 1942 & 1945? I am rather certain there was...
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
3 There is no proof that the Panther or Tiger tanks would have done better in May/June 1940 than the Pz 2,thus it is not correct to say that the Pz2 was crap .
There is proof that the Panzer III & IV were replacing the Panzer II. If the Panzer II was not crap, it would not be being replaced.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
4 There were 3 Semple tanks because there was nothing else available .
There were 3 Semple tanks, because they were crap & NZ stopped building them. If the Semple tank was the least bit useful, NZ would have built more of them.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 15:19
5 The Semple tanks were basic, but they had very simple supply demands .
So do rocks...Do you consider rocks to be tanks?
1 I see that you can't give an answer on a basic question .
2 I did NOT say that there was no need for tanks outside NZ after PH : I said that if there was a need for the Semple tanks outside NZ after PH, they would be used .
3 If the Pz 2 was crap why did the Germans built him and why did they continue to use him after Barbarossa ? The US stopped also with the production of the Sherman,of the Patton,of the Pershing,does that mean that these tanks were crap ?
4 If the Semple tank was crap, so was the Pershing ,because the bridges in NZ could carry only a weight of 25 tons ,and the weight of the Pershing was 46 ton,that of the Sherman was 38 tons,that of the Patton 38 tons .
5 In 1975 the Belgian army used and the old M48 Patton tank and the new German Leopard 1 , but nobody would say that the M 48 was crap .
The Patton was as good a tank as the Leopard .

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 02 Jun 2022 22:20

ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 18:53
1 I see that you can't give an answer on a basic question .
Sure I can...I told you to ask anybody...If there is no such thing as a good tank, you should not get a response...But, I am fairly certain you will get a response.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 18:53
2 I did NOT say that there was no need for tanks outside NZ after PH : I said that if there was a need for the Semple tanks outside NZ after PH, they would be used .
The Bob Semple tank is a tank is it not?? Everybody calls it a tank.

Tanks were needed after PH were they not??

Yet, the Bob Semple tank was not used even though tanks were needed.

Thus, the Bob Semple tank was so crappy, It was useless as a tank...Which it was.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 18:53
3 If the Pz 2 was crap why did the Germans built him and why did they continue to use him after Barbarossa ? The US stopped also with the production of the Sherman,of the Patton,of the Pershing,does that mean that these tanks were crap ?
The term you are looking for is obsolete.
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 18:53
4 If the Semple tank was crap, so was the Pershing ,because the bridges in NZ could carry only a weight of 25 tons ,and the weight of the Pershing was 46 ton,that of the Sherman was 38 tons,that of the Patton 38 tons .
Bridges? Why are you bringing up bridges? Can't tanks ford rivers?
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 18:53
5 In 1975 the Belgian army usedthe new German Leopard 1 and the old M48 Patton tank, but nobody would say that the M 48 was crap .
Again, the word you are looking for is obsolete.
If the M-48 was not obsolete, then why was it replaced?
ljadw wrote:
02 Jun 2022 18:53
The Patton was as good a tank as the Leopard .
If the M-48 was as good as the Leopard 1, the Leopard 1 would not have replaced the M-48, as there would be no reason to.

Yet, the Leopard 1 did replace the M-48. Thus, the M-48 was not as good as you claim.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Richard Anderson » 02 Jun 2022 22:23

I wasn't aware the Medium Tanks M46, M47, M48, or M60 were used in World War II. There are moments of enlightenment all the time when dealing with ljadw.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 02 Jun 2022 22:45

Like; Patton 38 tons .

Without armament, tracks & engine...Maybe.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by T. A. Gardner » 02 Jun 2022 22:47

Richard Anderson wrote:
02 Jun 2022 22:23
I wasn't aware the Medium Tanks M46, M47, M48, or M60 were used in World War II. There are moments of enlightenment all the time when dealing with ljadw.
The movies would never lie to us...

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ljadw » 03 Jun 2022 06:38

A ''good '' tank is something totally meaningless ,because 'good'','bad '' depend not on the design/construction of the tank, but on the circumstances, the mission, the terrain, the strength of the opponent,etc ..
The Pz 2, condemned by Takoa as crap, for reasons he refuses to tell us, was after the war still used by Norway .
If he was crap, the Norwegian army would not use him .
The US army stopped to use the Sherman tank,but several of its allies continued to use the Sherman tank : Israel til the 1980s .
This proves that if a tank is no longer used ,this does not mean that suddenly the tank has become crap or even obsolete .

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 03 Jun 2022 13:05

When it comes to machines there is good and bad,this is not philosophy so not everything is relative and subject to interpretation or subjective view.If we had a time machine and went to the past we could easily defeat all of previous civilizations (very very easily) because the tools-weapons of our time are better at killing in any way while the opposite,unless they use a magic wand and turn everyone braindead,cannot in any possible way happen.THAT IS PROGRESS AND ITS NOT RELATIVE.
Nations of the Middle East use 70s equipment because they cant afford modern ones en masse and if we take it a step further there exist African tribes that only use spears and bows.Are spears and bows better than 70s tanks ? Spanish conquerors of south America killed massive armies of natives with just a handful of men BECAUSE THEY HAD BETTER KILLING MACHINES (and of course more advanced tactics).
On a final note i want to say that with words we can prove everything and anything,even that we are all elephants,we can write 100000 page books about how and why we are elephants (we can even act as elephants) but merely by looking at our selfs in the mirror we know that we are humans.A theory or argument must be based on experience-experiment-reality if not it becomes an unfounded fantasy and then lying to ourselfs becomes a bad habit that we consider to be a good one.

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 03 Jun 2022 14:54

ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2022 06:38
A ''good '' tank is something totally meaningless ,because 'good'','bad '' depend not on the design/construction of the tank, but on the circumstances, the mission, the terrain, the strength of the opponent,etc ..
The Pz 2, condemned by Takoa as crap, for reasons he refuses to tell us, was after the war still used by Norway .
If he was crap, the Norwegian army would not use him .
The US army stopped to use the Sherman tank,but several of its allies continued to use the Sherman tank : Israel til the 1980s .
If no tank is "bad" and no tank is "obsolete"...Then why is nobody currently using British Mk 1 tanks?

ljadw wrote:
03 Jun 2022 06:38
This proves that if a tank is no longer used ,this does not mean that suddenly the tank has become crap or even obsolete .
If a tank is no longer being used, it is, by definition, obsolete.

Of, course, there are several circumstances where nations will continue to use obsolete tanks.

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 03 Jun 2022 14:57

Destroyer500 wrote:
03 Jun 2022 13:05
When it comes to machines there is good and bad,this is not philosophy so not everything is relative and subject to interpretation or subjective view.If we had a time machine and went to the past we could easily defeat all of previous civilizations (very very easily) because the tools-weapons of our time are better at killing in any way while the opposite,unless they use a magic wand and turn everyone braindead,cannot in any possible way happen.THAT IS PROGRESS AND ITS NOT RELATIVE.
Nations of the Middle East use 70s equipment because they cant afford modern ones en masse and if we take it a step further there exist African tribes that only use spears and bows.Are spears and bows better than 70s tanks ? Spanish conquerors of south America killed massive armies of natives with just a handful of men BECAUSE THEY HAD BETTER KILLING MACHINES (and of course more advanced tactics).
On a final note i want to say that with words we can prove everything and anything,even that we are all elephants,we can write 100000 page books about how and why we are elephants (we can even act as elephants) but merely by looking at our selfs in the mirror we know that we are humans.A theory or argument must be based on experience-experiment-reality if not it becomes an unfounded fantasy and then lying to ourselfs becomes a bad habit that we consider to be a good one.
The Great Karnak predicts ljadw will disagree with you.

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Destroyer500
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 03 Jun 2022 17:57

The Great Karnak predicts ljadw will disagree with you.
O im sure of it but im curious as to what hes gonna say

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