A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

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Destroyer500
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 22 Sep 2022 15:34

Takao wrote:
22 Sep 2022 01:06
Well, the complete round for the 5.5cm/L77 was 5.3 kilos...times 4.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_55_Gerat58.php
https://www.warships.com.cn/navweaps/WN ... erat58.htm This one sais its 5.3 killos too.That is somewhat great because it would be more lethal on any kind of penetration but the clip idea is totally out of the question,only some sort of feed system could work.

Then again is it really 5.3 kilos ? The AZP S-60s round,the gun that is derived from the Gerat design,doesnt weigh that much.If the Soviets decided to reduce the weight thats another story but i dont know if that the case.Even the 5cm L/60s shell weighs 2.05 kilos.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 22 Sep 2022 21:05

Yes, really over 5 kilos.

Both Sweden & Russia had naval 57mm automatic shells with complete round weights over 6 kilos in the 1950s.

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Destroyer500
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 23 Sep 2022 11:54

Takao wrote:
22 Sep 2022 21:05
Yes, really over 5 kilos.

Both Sweden & Russia had naval 57mm automatic shells with complete round weights over 6 kilos in the 1950s.
Are you sure about the weight ? http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSwede ... _mk123.php http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_57-60_m1951.php

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Takao
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 23 Sep 2022 13:35

Destroyer500 wrote:
23 Sep 2022 11:54
Takao wrote:
22 Sep 2022 21:05
Yes, really over 5 kilos.

Both Sweden & Russia had naval 57mm automatic shells with complete round weights over 6 kilos in the 1950s.
Are you sure about the weight ? http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSwede ... _mk123.php http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_57-60_m1951.php
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSwede ... _mk123.php
You did notice I said 1950's didn't you? This gun is from the 1960's. But, since you mentioned it...

Weight of Complete RoundPFHE: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
HCER: 14.3 lbs. (6.5 kg)
HE: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
57 3P 1a 2a: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
Mark 332: HE 4-Bolt Guided (HE-4G) projectile: about 14.3 lbs. (6.5 kg) 3a

Wow!! All over 6 kilos.


http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_57-60_m1951.php
Weight of Complete Round. 13.78 - 14.07 lbs. (6.25 - 6.38 kg)

Looks to be over 6 kilos...You apparently disagree...Were you only looking at projectile weight?

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Destroyer500
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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 24 Sep 2022 22:32

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSwede ... _mk123.php
You did notice I said 1950's didn't you? This gun is from the 1960's. But, since you mentioned it...

Weight of Complete RoundPFHE: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
HCER: 14.3 lbs. (6.5 kg)
HE: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
57 3P 1a 2a: 13.4 lbs. (6.1 kg)
Mark 332: HE 4-Bolt Guided (HE-4G) projectile: about 14.3 lbs. (6.5 kg) 3a

Wow!! All over 6 kilos.


http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_57-60_m1951.php
Weight of Complete Round. 13.78 - 14.07 lbs. (6.25 - 6.38 kg)

Looks to be over 6 kilos...You apparently disagree...Were you only looking at projectile weight?
I feel like such an idiot.Yes you are absolutely right its a lot heavier than i though because i was only looking at projectile weight.I mean its clearly stated Weight of complete round but i somehow completely missed it.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 29 Sep 2022 07:42

Yeah 50mm+ rounds are a lot heavier than you think, square-cube law can be pretty crazy.

40mm bofors shell weight= 2.1 kilograms.

55mm would be some 2.5 times larger than 40mm by volume, giving a weight of around 5-6 kilograms.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 30 Sep 2022 19:54

ThatZenoGuy wrote:
29 Sep 2022 07:42
Yeah 50mm+ rounds are a lot heavier than you think, square-cube law can be pretty crazy.

40mm bofors shell weight= 2.1 kilograms.

55mm would be some 2.5 times larger than 40mm by volume, giving a weight of around 5-6 kilograms.
When i read how much of a performance increase the new Panther tank of Germany had while only going from 120 to 130mm in gun size i was baffled.It was just 10mms but due to the size the increase in strength and weight went a lot up.It turns out that the whole thing doesnt work in a linear maner,or at least in the linear way i was thinking of it.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 01 Oct 2022 02:28

Destroyer500 wrote:
30 Sep 2022 19:54
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
29 Sep 2022 07:42
Yeah 50mm+ rounds are a lot heavier than you think, square-cube law can be pretty crazy.

40mm bofors shell weight= 2.1 kilograms.

55mm would be some 2.5 times larger than 40mm by volume, giving a weight of around 5-6 kilograms.
When i read how much of a performance increase the new Panther tank of Germany had while only going from 120 to 130mm in gun size i was baffled.It was just 10mms but due to the size the increase in strength and weight went a lot up.It turns out that the whole thing doesnt work in a linear maner,or at least in the linear way i was thinking of it.
Yup, while the caliber only went up by 10mm, the cartridge is massively longer to support a longer dart and more powder.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 02 Oct 2022 01:04

Double Post.
Last edited by Takao on 02 Oct 2022 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 02 Oct 2022 01:15

Destroyer500 wrote:
30 Sep 2022 19:54
ThatZenoGuy wrote:
29 Sep 2022 07:42
Yeah 50mm+ rounds are a lot heavier than you think, square-cube law can be pretty crazy.

40mm bofors shell weight= 2.1 kilograms.

55mm would be some 2.5 times larger than 40mm by volume, giving a weight of around 5-6 kilograms.
When i read how much of a performance increase the new Panther tank of Germany had while only going from 120 to 130mm in gun size i was baffled.It was just 10mms but due to the size the increase in strength and weight went a lot up.It turns out that the whole thing doesnt work in a linear maner,or at least in the linear way i was thinking of it.
That is because your thinking is all wrong. You see, it is neither 120mm or 130mm...But 140mm.

The 120mm is a "necked down" version of the original German 140mm. They continued this with the 130mm, as it is "necked down" from 140mm. The difference is that the length of the 130mm complete round is much greater(allowing 50% to 75% more propellant - visual guess).

You can see here, that the diameter of the propellant casing is the same for the 130mm & 120mm
Image
The length difference is also readily apparent.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 02 Oct 2022 23:47

That is because your thinking is all wrong. You see, it is neither 120mm or 130mm...But 140mm.

The 120mm is a "necked down" version of the original German 140mm. They continued this with the 130mm, as it is "necked down" from 140mm. The difference is that the length of the 130mm complete round is much greater(allowing 50% to 75% more propellant - visual guess).

You can see here, that the diameter of the propellant casing is the same for the 130mm & 120mm
Image
The length difference is also readily apparent.
Thanks for the clarification.I have seen a lot of videos involving modern tanks and read articles and seen people discuss them but i never knew that a "downscalling" took place in modern German guns.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by High wind and rainstorm » 03 Oct 2022 09:00

I think the Ⅲ N tank just needs to change its armor to 80mm whole armor (instead of 50mm plus 20mm), at the same time, equipped with HEAT (armor that can penetrate 100mm), it can effectively fight against T34 tanks. Small caliber rounds are bad against tilt-bag armor, 75 mm HEAT is more appropriate(Although firing by a short barrel gun is not a good choice either)

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Takao » 03 Oct 2022 21:46

Destroyer500 wrote:
02 Oct 2022 23:47
That is because your thinking is all wrong. You see, it is neither 120mm or 130mm...But 140mm.

The 120mm is a "necked down" version of the original German 140mm. They continued this with the 130mm, as it is "necked down" from 140mm. The difference is that the length of the 130mm complete round is much greater(allowing 50% to 75% more propellant - visual guess).

You can see here, that the diameter of the propellant casing is the same for the 130mm & 120mm
Image
The length difference is also readily apparent.
Thanks for the clarification.I have seen a lot of videos involving modern tanks and read articles and seen people discuss them but i never knew that a "downscalling" took place in modern German guns.
Everybody downscaled when the Soviet Union imploded, as many Western nations were on the cusp of fielding 140mm guns. With no near-term threat of Soviet super tanks, the funding for 140s dried up across the board. The designs would be reexamined every now and then, but it is only recently that these guns are undergoing a more thorough reappraisal.

IIRC, the US 140mm was the XM291. But Google...Abrams, Thumper...and you should find plenty.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 04 Oct 2022 00:06

High wind and rainstorm wrote:
03 Oct 2022 09:00
I think the Ⅲ N tank just needs to change its armor to 80mm whole armor (instead of 50mm plus 20mm), at the same time, equipped with HEAT (armor that can penetrate 100mm), it can effectively fight against T34 tanks. Small caliber rounds are bad against tilt-bag armor, 75 mm HEAT is more appropriate(Although firing by a short barrel gun is not a good choice either)
I would personally give the late versions of the panzer 3 an extra 20mm spaced plate on the hull and turret front,or make both external spaced plates 25 and 25mms and have it reach 100mm of spaced armor.I would also change the material from high hardness steel to rolled homogenous for those extra plates.Altough spaced armor is not magical its definitely an easy way to add protection to a tank.They could even dismount it for long marches where no battle is going to take place and with a small crane and some tool add those plates when close to the front.This is the easiest upgrade i can think of without slopping the front,the sides or in general doing rearrangements that require a factory and plenty of time.In the end i believe such a rearranged tank should take the place of the 3 and 4 but not be as big as the panther.Anyway im going off topic.Finaly i believe they should modify the schurtzen on the late panzer 3s to be like on the stuh 42 and on the panzer 4 H were you could have both the ost-winterketten and the schurtzen attached at the same time.I would also probably make the schurtzen double the thickness to not have them fall off on every encounter with a bush or random rock and to offer better protection.Why not even even have 2 spaced (with a small distance between them) schurtzen on each side or both the turret and hull ? No HEAT shell or bazooka is getting through that !

The short 75 of the N and the early panzer 4s with its HEAT shell was good enough for most opponents but you cant expect such a low velocity gun to lob shells at a distance with accuracy.Now were not going to fight at 3 km but a 70-80% hit ratio at 1km should be the standard.Going 75 L48 is viable but you have the panzer 4 for that unless we go down the path were they dont even bother to make that which then leads to possibly the panzer 3 getting it.

We have also talked about the PAW guns in here but theyre late war tech and they would have to prioritize them from a lot earlier to have them accessible within a reasonable timeframe.They also have the plus of being light and easily used as a field gun.

Me thinking all these problems was one of the reasons,it was also my curiosity playing with different ideas,that i proposed a somewhat full auto 50-55-60mm gun (the latter would have to be developed because none at that size existed) with a high enough pen to be on par with the L48 75 and the option for high fire rate in case planes come out of the blue.A field gun of this kind could turn from a tank killer to an AA with the flip of a switch (im imagining some semi auto to full auto switch here) and some cranking.But in no way is it light enough to be moved around easily.
Last edited by Destroyer500 on 04 Oct 2022 00:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A Panzer 3 is all there needed to be

Post by Destroyer500 » 04 Oct 2022 00:10

Everybody downscaled when the Soviet Union imploded, as many Western nations were on the cusp of fielding 140mm guns. With no near-term threat of Soviet super tanks, the funding for 140s dried up across the board. The designs would be reexamined every now and then, but it is only recently that these guns are undergoing a more thorough reappraisal.

IIRC, the US 140mm was the XM291. But Google...Abrams, Thumper...and you should find plenty.
Yes that i know.I remember everyone preparing prototypes that were heavier,with bigger guns protection and what not and then due to the Soviet collapse they put the designs in a drawer for when they would need them again.But the "necked down" 120 Leopard gun was something new for me.

I should also know that i know of the Abrams thumper and i have to admit i love its looks.

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