German mega defense

[Cult Icon]

From a quick search i did i learned that they flanked the defenses from the east and then started to make some progress.Before that the Germans managed to stall the Americans for somewhat 2 and a half months even though the Americans had superiority in every field.Things like this make me think that a defence my kind of size and type could hold

The Unknown Battle, Metz 1944 is available with cheap copies available on Amazon. If you dive deeper there are divisional histories and memoirs of both sides.

[Cult Icon]

I recall that there were long gaps of inactivity in the battle of Metz (in a way Operation Madison was a culmination of long experience in dealing with the area). Also the Germans primarily used infantry based counterattacks. The forts were also very old and did not fit modern weapons well. This fit with the theater-strategy of stalling the Allies with limited resources while the German military rebuilt itself in the fall.

As defense-in depth also requires counterattacks to erase breaches and threats to the system, a permanent defense would require the resources necessarily to create local superiority (from the German side) and execute an operational level counterstrike to push the Americans away from the fortifications and any outflanking manuever. So the strategic situation would be very different than the fall of 1944', more like the summer of 41'/42'/43' and so forth with a restored air, artillery, and tank forces.

[T. A. Gardner]

I recall that there were long gaps of inactivity in the battle of Metz (in a way Operation Madison was a culmination of long experience in dealing with the area). Also the Germans primarily used infantry based counterattacks. The forts were also very old and did not fit modern weapons well. This fit with the theater-strategy of stalling the Allies with limited resources while the German military rebuilt itself in the fall.

As defense-in depth also requires counterattacks to erase breaches and threats to the system, a permanent defense would require the resources necessarily to create local superiority (from the German side) and execute an operational level counterstrike to push the Americans away from the fortifications and any outflanking manuever. So the strategic situation would be very different than the fall of 1944', more like the summer of 41'/42'/43' and so forth with a restored air, artillery, and tank forces.

There was an initial attempt by the 3rd Army to take the city in September 44, then a lull in October while the US sorted out their failure to take the forts. A second try was made in November and successful. The forts fell pretty quickly because the troops got training in how to take them and this time, unlike the first, they didn't try to take the underground portions, just seal them off and do nasty stuff like dump gasoline down ventilation shafts and set it on fire.

The 10cm cannon turrets at forts like Jeanne d'Arc were the major cause of US problems because these proved nearly impossible to knock out with field artillery or air attack while they could fire in any direction.

[maltesefalcon]

A big factor here is the timeline.

If Germany built massive defenses pre-1939 and stayed behind them, then the war would not likely have occurred at all.

If they did in mid-1942 then the defenses would either be in occupied countries, or the Germans would need to cut and run to get back to their borders. Thus abandoning much of their ill gotten gains.

If they did it any time after January 1944, the war was irretrievably lost, no matter what.

[paulrward]

Hello All :

As for a series of fortifications to protect the Third Reich:

Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man. If mountain ranges
and oceans can be overcome, then anything built by man can be overcome.

.George S. Patton

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward

[T. A. Gardner]

In the West, Festung Istein is something along the lines of what's proposed here. It's sort of a mirror of the Maginot Line. Maybe 10% of it got built, if that, before France fell with the rest abandoned, but the planned fortress is quite extensive. It included several batteries of 88 mm flak, had 170mm guns built into casemates to cover the whole of the construction that covered roughly 2 km in width and depth. The planned garrison was 2,600 men.

[Destroyer500]

Hello All :

As for a series of fortifications to protect the Third Reich:

Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man. If mountain ranges
and oceans can be overcome, then anything built by man can be overcome.

.George S. Patton

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward

But if the Maginot Line was extended all the way to the north up to the English channel would Patton be saying the same ? Lets also not forget that the Maginot Line worked in pushing the Germans north for an invasion,it only failed due to the "Ardennes forest cannot be crossed" assumption of the French.If the French had given more importance to the Ardennes part would Patton be saying the same ?

[Destroyer500]

A big factor here is the timeline.

If Germany built massive defenses pre-1939 and stayed behind them, then the war would not likely have occurred at all.

If they did in mid-1942 then the defenses would either be in occupied countries, or the Germans would need to cut and run to get back to their borders. Thus abandoning much of their ill gotten gains.

If they did it any time after January 1944, the war was irretrievably lost, no matter what.

Germany built them from the moment the NSDAP has control of the country up until 1943.They only annex Austria and a part of Chechoslovakia just like it happened in our timeline and then stop.These defences would propably only be tested by the Soviet Union since theres no doubt they would try invade western Europe.The western powers would propably never care to do all they did.
As for 1942 i dont think theres enough time to make all that i mentioned unless you propose a scalled down version or unless the German become literal robots

[Cult Icon]

Metz was Patton's first defeat though and it was primarily due to the fortifications rather than the ragtag elements holding it.

[Destroyer500]

I will give you a very very rough and on a very low quality picture example of the scale i imagine it to be.I tried to find a map of mountain Europe yesterday to make a detailed drawing of where the defenses should not be built because natural hard terrain act as cover but i couldnt find one.So here it is.

Im not really sure about the northern part of the defenses but i drew one anyway.I wanted to make a more detailed one where i show the position of each individual flak tower and bunker and trench but i could only find high resolution pictures of Germany but as i said i want Austria nad Chechoslovakia on the mix.Please dont laugh

[maltesefalcon]

Once again I ask-if the Germans invested the bulk of their military spending on this project, then is it not useless if they invade Western Europe or Poland? But that begs the next question, if they spend the bulk of their budget on defensive measures, they have not enough offensive forces to attack anyone in the first place, right?
So the war might not happen.
Plus Hitler was driven by Lebensraum and revenge vs France. Sitting behind a wall does neither.

[Destroyer500]

Once again I ask-if the Germans invested the bulk of their military spending on this project, then is it not useless if they invade Western Europe or Poland? But that begs the next question, if they spend the bulk of their budget on defensive measures, they have not enough offensive forces to attack anyone in the first place, right?
So the war might not happen.
Plus Hitler was driven by Lebensraum and revenge vs France. Sitting behind a wall does neither.

Hitler did not want a war with the west in any way.It was Britain and France that as soon as the Polish invasion happened declared war.If they didnt Adolf couldnt care less.A Russian-German war would happen but thats all.
The Soviet Union would definetly try and invade western Europe as they had tried to do before.And most propably they would go through Germany

[maltesefalcon]

Once again I ask-if the Germans invested the bulk of their military spending on this project, then is it not useless if they invade Western Europe or Poland? But that begs the next question, if they spend the bulk of their budget on defensive measures, they have not enough offensive forces to attack anyone in the first place, right?
So the war might not happen.
Plus Hitler was driven by Lebensraum and revenge vs France. Sitting behind a wall does neither.

The Soviet Union would definetly try and invade western Europe as they had tried to do before.

Before what? Before WW2? Please elaborate on the Soviet invasion of western Europe mentioned above. That's a new one I was not aware of.

[Richard Anderson]

Once again I ask-if the Germans invested the bulk of their military spending on this project, then is it not useless if they invade Western Europe or Poland? But that begs the next question, if they spend the bulk of their budget on defensive measures, they have not enough offensive forces to attack anyone in the first place, right?
So the war might not happen.
Plus Hitler was driven by Lebensraum and revenge vs France. Sitting behind a wall does neither.

The Soviet Union would definetly try and invade western Europe as they had tried to do before.

Before what? Before WW2? Please elaborate on the Soviet invasion of western Europe mentioned above. That's a new one I was not aware of.

1813-1814...

[Destroyer500]

Once again I ask-if the Germans invested the bulk of their military spending on this project, then is it not useless if they invade Western Europe or Poland? But that begs the next question, if they spend the bulk of their budget on defensive measures, they have not enough offensive forces to attack anyone in the first place, right?
So the war might not happen.
Plus Hitler was driven by Lebensraum and revenge vs France. Sitting behind a wall does neither.

The Soviet Union would definetly try and invade western Europe as they had tried to do before.

Before what? Before WW2? Please elaborate on the Soviet invasion of western Europe mentioned above. That's a new one I was not aware of.

The soviet union was planning an invasion for 1942-1943.The soviet union since the time it was created was constantly trying to expand.