German mega defense

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Destroyer500
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Re: German mega defense

#31

Post by Destroyer500 » 14 May 2022, 23:37

Richard Anderson wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:25
maltesefalcon wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:22
Destroyer500 wrote:
14 May 2022, 22:37
maltesefalcon wrote:
14 May 2022, 22:17
Once again I ask-if the Germans invested the bulk of their military spending on this project, then is it not useless if they invade Western Europe or Poland? But that begs the next question, if they spend the bulk of their budget on defensive measures, they have not enough offensive forces to attack anyone in the first place, right?
So the war might not happen.
Plus Hitler was driven by Lebensraum and revenge vs France. Sitting behind a wall does neither.
The Soviet Union would definetly try and invade western Europe as they had tried to do before.
Before what? Before WW2? Please elaborate on the Soviet invasion of western Europe mentioned above. That's a new one I was not aware of.
1813-1814...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War I guess this attempt to get to western Europe slipped by your radar

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Re: German mega defense

#32

Post by maltesefalcon » 15 May 2022, 00:30

Destroyer500 wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:37
Richard Anderson wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:25
maltesefalcon wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:22
Destroyer500 wrote:
14 May 2022, 22:37
maltesefalcon wrote:
14 May 2022, 22:17
Once again I ask-if the Germans invested the bulk of their military spending on this project, then is it not useless if they invade Western Europe or Poland? But that begs the next question, if they spend the bulk of their budget on defensive measures, they have not enough offensive forces to attack anyone in the first place, right?
So the war might not happen.
Plus Hitler was driven by Lebensraum and revenge vs France. Sitting behind a wall does neither.
The Soviet Union would definetly try and invade western Europe as they had tried to do before.
Before what? Before WW2? Please elaborate on the Soviet invasion of western Europe mentioned above. That's a new one I was not aware of.
1813-1814...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War I guess this attempt to get to western Europe slipped by your radar
If you are referring to the Russian-Polish War, it did escape my radar because it has nothing to do with the claim you made about a Soviet invasion of Western Europe. First because it ended 1 year before the Soviet Union technically existed. And it was in Eastern Europe. And the Poles initiated hostilities when they moved east first.
Not sure what the 1813-1814 reference above is either.


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Destroyer500
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Re: German mega defense

#33

Post by Destroyer500 » 15 May 2022, 01:01

maltesefalcon wrote:
15 May 2022, 00:30
Destroyer500 wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:37
Richard Anderson wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:25
maltesefalcon wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:22
Destroyer500 wrote:
14 May 2022, 22:37

The Soviet Union would definetly try and invade western Europe as they had tried to do before.
Before what? Before WW2? Please elaborate on the Soviet invasion of western Europe mentioned above. That's a new one I was not aware of.
1813-1814...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War I guess this attempt to get to western Europe slipped by your radar
If you are referring to the Russian-Polish War, it did escape my radar because it has nothing to do with the claim you made about a Soviet invasion of Western Europe. First because it ended 1 year before the Soviet Union technically existed. And it was in Eastern Europe. And the Poles initiated hostilities when they moved east first.
Not sure what the 1813-1814 reference above is either.
Lenin saw the newly independent Poland (formed in October–November 1918) as the bridge which his Red Army would have to cross to assist other communist movements and to bring about more European revolutions. At the same time, leading Polish politicians of different orientations pursued the general expectation of restoring the country's pre-1772 borders. Motivated by that idea, Polish Chief of State Józef Piłsudski (in office from 14 November 1918) began moving troops east.
Copy Pasted from the wiki

We are both correct but the point is that the Soviets had plans to again spread to Europe

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Re: German mega defense

#34

Post by maltesefalcon » 15 May 2022, 01:33

Destroyer500 wrote:
15 May 2022, 01:01
maltesefalcon wrote:
15 May 2022, 00:30
Destroyer500 wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:37
Richard Anderson wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:25
maltesefalcon wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:22


Before what? Before WW2? Please elaborate on the Soviet invasion of western Europe mentioned above. That's a new one I was not aware of.
1813-1814...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War I guess this attempt to get to western Europe slipped by your radar
If you are referring to the Russian-Polish War, it did escape my radar because it has nothing to do with the claim you made about a Soviet invasion of Western Europe. First because it ended 1 year before the Soviet Union technically existed. And it was in Eastern Europe. And the Poles initiated hostilities when they moved east first.
Not sure what the 1813-1814 reference above is either.
Lenin saw the newly independent Poland (formed in October–November 1918) as the bridge which his Red Army would have to cross to assist other communist movements and to bring about more European revolutions. At the same time, leading Polish politicians of different orientations pursued the general expectation of restoring the country's pre-1772 borders. Motivated by that idea, Polish Chief of State Józef Piłsudski (in office from 14 November 1918) began moving troops east.
Copy Pasted from the wiki

We are both correct but the point is that the Soviets had plans to again spread to Europe
No you are not. Sorry. Soviet Union did not exist in 1920-21. The war was not in Western Europe. And when the Soviets actually did invade Poland in 1939 they made no moves into western Europe at all. That was nearly 20 years later. It's a pretty slow invasion plan IMHO.

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Re: German mega defense

#35

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 May 2022, 03:10

maltesefalcon wrote:
15 May 2022, 00:30
Not sure what the 1813-1814 reference above is either.
About as serious as most of the posts in this rather odd thread. I figured the OP would equate "Soviet" with "Russian" and rolled with it since, as you said, the Russo-Polish War - Soviet-Polish War? - had nothing to do with a "Soviet invasion of the west".
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Takao
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Re: German mega defense

#36

Post by Takao » 15 May 2022, 10:31

If we are equating The Soviet Union with Russia...Why bother with Poland, as Sweden is historically a more likely target.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... and_Sweden

Not that this moves the thread out of Alien Space Bat territory.

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Re: German mega defense

#37

Post by Destroyer500 » 15 May 2022, 15:22

maltesefalcon wrote:
15 May 2022, 01:33
Destroyer500 wrote:
15 May 2022, 01:01
maltesefalcon wrote:
15 May 2022, 00:30
Destroyer500 wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:37
Richard Anderson wrote:
14 May 2022, 23:25


1813-1814...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War I guess this attempt to get to western Europe slipped by your radar
If you are referring to the Russian-Polish War, it did escape my radar because it has nothing to do with the claim you made about a Soviet invasion of Western Europe. First because it ended 1 year before the Soviet Union technically existed. And it was in Eastern Europe. And the Poles initiated hostilities when they moved east first.
Not sure what the 1813-1814 reference above is either.
Lenin saw the newly independent Poland (formed in October–November 1918) as the bridge which his Red Army would have to cross to assist other communist movements and to bring about more European revolutions. At the same time, leading Polish politicians of different orientations pursued the general expectation of restoring the country's pre-1772 borders. Motivated by that idea, Polish Chief of State Józef Piłsudski (in office from 14 November 1918) began moving troops east.
Copy Pasted from the wiki

We are both correct but the point is that the Soviets had plans to again spread to Europe
No you are not. Sorry. Soviet Union did not exist in 1920-21. The war was not in Western Europe. And when the Soviets actually did invade Poland in 1939 they made no moves into western Europe at all. That was nearly 20 years later. It's a pretty slow invasion plan IMHO.
Lenin saw the newly independent Poland (formed in October–November 1918) as the bridge which his Red Army would have to cross to assist other communist movements and to bring about more European revolutions.
HMMMMMMMMM I WONDER WHAT THAT MEANS

So you are tellling me that Stalin had no intention of getting into western Europe and that Lenin wanted to just go for tourism in Poland ? Yes i know the time the Soviet Union was "officially" created but from the moment the government is not that of the Tsar but that of Lenin then i can call it Soviet Russia any time i want.
Richard Anderson wrote:
15 May 2022, 03:10
maltesefalcon wrote:
15 May 2022, 00:30
Not sure what the 1813-1814 reference above is either.
About as serious as most of the posts in this rather odd thread. I figured the OP would equate "Soviet" with "Russian" and rolled with it since, as you said, the Russo-Polish War - Soviet-Polish War? - had nothing to do with a "Soviet invasion of the west".
Yea sure buddy it had nothing to do with the west,just like the German invasion of Russia had nothing to do with the east,they were just aggressive tourists.If Germany plays defense after Chechoslovakia then apart from the Soviets noone sane enough will probably attack them for a long time.

What on earth does any of this have to do with my German mega defense post ? Tell me more about defensive warfare,bring me more examples of forts in the 1940s era or battles that happened near them,talk to me about the costs of such warfare,talk to me about defensive doctrines,about air powers and how it changed the landscape,talk to me about flak tower,about the antantic wall and of course challenge my post in any way shape or form your can.I will of course always use counterarguments because im trying to find ways to make my idea work and thats the whole purpose of these discussions and ill take it as far as its sane to go to make it work.If someone gives me a really good reason of why it would not work ill accept it and change my mind.Even if i dont change my mind 100% then i will to the very least reconsider my initial thoughts and adapt them to the new insights.So far only a few people gave me proper answers,i want to see more of you do the same.

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Destroyer500
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Re: German mega defense

#38

Post by Destroyer500 » 17 May 2022, 15:02

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_balloon i had been seeing all these balloons on pictures of the era and never knew that some of them had this purpose.From the reading the wiki they dont seem to have been very effective but i guess a book would do a better job from the wiki.
I was fascinated by airships and blimps some time ago and found out that were even tries to make an aircraft carrier out of them and the US did some experiments with that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Akron#Loss but it didnt end well.I was also thinking of airships in an aggressive warfare were they would carry fighters,or small dive bombers at high altitude but their slow speed and vulnerability made me rethink of it plus they would have to be giant (i personally wouldnt mind of the size) to carry ww2 aircraft.Why i bring this up ? Because if they can be used as barrage ballons,carriers,transporters and what not why not make one (in the 40s era) that is reinforced and that can carry some light AA (say max 30mm) to protect your bunkers ? I was also thinking of them having chains to be put lower (of course even lowered to ground level ) or higher and just like some British barrage baloons,be connected in a way that they create a mesh.
I would also like some info on the Atlantic wall.From what i read it is said that they spanned a huge region
Atlantikwall.png
.It seems,from what ive read that it was never completed and that it was the inferiority of German forces at the Normandy area coupled with their nonexistent at the time air force that doomed it and that allowed the allies to land.If they can built all that in just 2 years,or at least built a big part of it,then building my version of defenses doesnt sound that far fetched.Of course one can bring the argument that they occupied almost all of western Europe and a big part of the eastern so they had freedom when it comes to resources (well to some materials at least) and that is certainly true but in my version they are given something like 8-9 years to built it with no bombs destroying their infastracture and rail network and with an annexed Austria and Chechoslovakia.In my version they also have sufficient airpower.
Someone also talked about building the defenses i proposed in 1941 or 1942 and i guess if they had the resources for the Atlantic wall then they surely would have them for what i propose but would such an act make sense at that time ? If for some reason they did build the defenses would they stop their collapse or at least severely slow it down ?
Germany early in the war had only few tanks (and some pretty mediocre ones) and mostly outdid their enemies with tactics,i dont know if this kind of defense leaves any money or personnel for a mobile army but just for the sake of it ill say that there may have been space for an invasion of Poland by 1942-3 and maybe even for a battle of France by the same year but at that time the French may have built the Maginot line till the sea.In a "defensive Adolf" where he doesnt care about conquering Russia he could play it better diplomatically and avoid further problems with Poland and get some sort of population exchange and maybe give them money to get Danzig ? I dont know,this is a what if after all.

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Re: German mega defense

#39

Post by Takao » 17 May 2022, 18:06

Problem...If Hitler could play better diplomatically, he would not need the wall in the first place.

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Re: German mega defense

#40

Post by Destroyer500 » 17 May 2022, 18:28

Takao wrote:
17 May 2022, 18:06
Problem...If Hitler could play better diplomatically, he would not need the wall in the first place.
Very very questionable.Europian wars had been going on for centuries,implying he wouldnt neel a wall of defenses (or an army) its the same as saying they shouldnt rearm themselfs and just accept the Weimar Republics laws.Apart from that its not like the allies were saints of some sort.Were diverting from the topic though.

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Re: German mega defense

#41

Post by T. A. Gardner » 17 May 2022, 20:00

The Atlantic Wall lasted all of a week when the Allies invaded at Normandy, maybe less. The Maginot Line was under serious attack and would likely have failed when France fell. The Japanese managed to take most of the fortifications at Manila Bay. Heavy fortifications in and of themselves, are no panacea in warfare. They can, and generally are, overcome by a determined foe attacking them. Yes, they can make it harder to overcome a defense line, but they are not a winner as a strategy on their own.

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Re: German mega defense

#42

Post by Destroyer500 » 18 May 2022, 13:12

T. A. Gardner wrote:
17 May 2022, 20:00
The Atlantic Wall lasted all of a week when the Allies invaded at Normandy, maybe less. The Maginot Line was under serious attack and would likely have failed when France fell. The Japanese managed to take most of the fortifications at Manila Bay. Heavy fortifications in and of themselves, are no panacea in warfare. They can, and generally are, overcome by a determined foe attacking them. Yes, they can make it harder to overcome a defense line, but they are not a winner as a strategy on their own.
The Maginot Line failed because the French planned on connecting their forts with Belgium and because they messed up hard in the Ardennes.The Germans just bypased the line and didnt really fight the defenders there.In some cases that i found of them attacking Maginot they easily "won" but i say "won" because at that point the French army had left the forts almost empty and moved its armies elsewhere so the Germans mostly walked through them.
They didnt plan on having just defences but a somewhat mobile army too to plug any holes in the defenses and that means artilery,infantry,planes and tanks to support the forts.Most of these forts were used completely on their own even in those few cases they were attacked and again that wasnt the initial plan.The atlantic wall heavily fortified ports and other key areas and it was the armies job to strengthen the weaker ones like Normandy.The thing is that on DDay Rommel was with his wife celebrating her birthday,Adolf was sleeping,the generals were having war games on the eastern front,the tanks were far from the shore and in one sentence the Germans were doing other stuff.On the other hand the allies had broken the enigma code,used French resistance on their advantage,had MASSIVE air superiority over the area and had done a ton of planning.Lets also not forget that the HEER,i think it was them,was expecting a landing to happen at a port not some random beach.Again,forts on their own dont work

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Re: German mega defense

#43

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 May 2022, 17:21

T. A. Gardner wrote:
17 May 2022, 20:00
The Atlantic Wall lasted all of a week when the Allies invaded at Normandy, maybe less.
Considerably less, arguably from about one to five hours.
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Re: German mega defense

#44

Post by T. A. Gardner » 18 May 2022, 18:22

Richard Anderson wrote:
18 May 2022, 17:21
T. A. Gardner wrote:
17 May 2022, 20:00
The Atlantic Wall lasted all of a week when the Allies invaded at Normandy, maybe less.
Considerably less, arguably from about one to five hours.
I was being generous...

As for the Maginot Line, a serious weakness were the observation cloches that when designed weren't faced with large caliber antitank gunfire that could penetrate them quickly and easily.

Image

Without these key observation posts, the line was blinded and the main bunkers could be attacked far more easily.

Also, the line wasn't uniform in its defense structures. The Rhine defenses relied more on direct fire bunkers along that river than the fortress systems of the main part of the line.

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Re: German mega defense

#45

Post by Huszar666 » 18 May 2022, 18:33

The Maginot Line failed because the French planned on connecting their forts with Belgium and because they messed up hard in the Ardennes.The Germans just bypased the line and didnt really fight the defenders there.In some cases that i found of them attacking Maginot they easily "won" but i say "won" because at that point the French army had left the forts almost empty and moved its armies elsewhere so the Germans mostly walked through them.
This is not correct. The line was held till the armistice (and in a few cases even after that) and at no point was it "abandoned".
I reality, the Germans were able to penetrate the line in at least two points, despite the French holding it with the intended garrison.

The Great Powers figured out how to penetrate fixed defences back in 1918, every last one of the forts or fortification lines in WW2 was defeated by determined assault. Probably Sevastopol held out the longest, but even that was only possible because the Germans had better things to do between December 1941 and June 1942 than to assault the line.

Eben Emael fell in how many HOURS again? How long did the Norwegian coastal forts last? Mannerheim Line? Metaxas Line? El Alemain position? Or the fabled Ostwall?

Not counting rare exceptions (Árpád Line, Sevastopol, Mannerheim Line, maybe the Westwall) the time every last fortification line bought for the defenders could be measured in days, maybe in a couple of weeks - if and when the attacker arrived at the line at the end of his logistics line.

In contrast to Germany the Western Allies had a HUGE pile of old WW1 superheavy artillery, building bunkers EVERYWHERE that can survive 12"++++ shells would bankrupt you faster than building the Z-Plan ships in two years...

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