If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

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LAstry2
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If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by LAstry2 » 15 May 2022 22:34

If instead of 1895 when Japan started to conquer China and Korea stating in 1895 if thses events had taken plaine 200 years before in 1592
Japan would have been under rule of Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu dynasty
Korea would have been under rule of the Yi Dynasty
China would have been under rule of emperor Toyotomi Hideyoshi
Hideyoshi would have sent armed expeditions against India, Burma Thailand and Vietnam not to conquer but to occupy land a s bargaining chips....to control vital trade routes to secure power and wealth....

He would not go north against russia but he would go southwest Against the Ottman emPire he would send combined Japanese; Chinses; Korea and Mongel armies to conquer Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt to secure the silk routes power and wealth

To keep powere he needs a European Ally....
France too far away
England too small
Spain is into trade but are also missionaries......
This left the dutch...they are experienced traders east and west; they occupy the vital spices islands and they are not missionaries.....

If only history had been different.....An Asian Empire from the Pacific to the Mederiterrain and the Indian seas

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ghost1275
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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by ghost1275 » 23 Dec 2023 02:13

I beg the difference on your alt history take. Toyotomi Hideyoshi did attempt to conquer Ming China. It was known as Imjin War. The Japanese force couldn’t even subdue Korea.

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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by OpanaPointer » 23 Dec 2023 02:54

Reading the Japanese Monographs has given me the impression that Japan was NEVER going to conquer China.
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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 26 Dec 2023 22:58

Not with the approach used. The Mongols and the Manchu conquered the empire outright. The Europeans collectively made a job of it in the 19th Century with a indirect proxy approach.

The Japanese approach 1937: Colonel Sir, the First Battalion has invaded China! Col. X - "OMG, muster the Regiment, they will need help!"

General Sir! First Regiment has invaded China! General Y - "They will need artillery right away, get it rolling. And alert the other regiments!

Field Marshal your honor, First Army has invaded China! Marshal Z - "Fetch my sword and horse. I must hasten after them for I am their leader!"

Emperor! The Kwantung Army has invaded China! Emperor - "If they are losing behead the leaders. If they are winning send more armies."


Timing is everything. had the Japanese rolled in at the height of the Warlord era, fourteen years earlier the Gods might have favored them.

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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by ghost1275 » 29 Dec 2023 03:25

Kwantung Army decided to invade Manchuria on its own initiative and thus forced Tokyo to accept the outcome.

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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by AnchorSteam » 07 Jan 2024 06:26

China's hisotry is almost entirely it's own fault.That is true for most people, but in China's case it is practically inevitable.
For thousands of years they looked down on everyone else, we were all just "barbarians" to them. This is why they failed to secire good allies when it mattered most, in the 1800s, and why they call it "The century of humiliation".... because they were beaten by people they had always been taught to see as inferior to them.
Yes, this includes the Japanese.
Also; if Chaing had made a treaty with Japan after they siezed Manchuria .... as distasteful and agonizing as that would have been.... he could have avoided the diasters of 1937-44. Nationalist China could have maintained neutrality and chose it's moment to strick with far more effectivness when Japan's Pacific war started to collapse around it's ears.
Harder for us, better for them.

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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by History Learner » 06 Feb 2024 20:45

OpanaPointer wrote:
23 Dec 2023 02:54
Reading the Japanese Monographs has given me the impression that Japan was NEVER going to conquer China.
They'd basically conquered all of the relevant economic (Industrial and agricultural) areas by 1944 with Ichi-Go and mass starvation was starting to set in among the Chinese until the weight of the Anglo-American war effort really started to come down on the Japanese. Without the Pacific War, I don't think there's anyway the Japanese would've failed in China, given the favorable resource balance.

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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by OpanaPointer » 06 Feb 2024 23:01

"They bit off more than they could chew" as the old saying goes.

As Showa said at one Cabinet meeting: "You have told me for the last four years that the war in China would only last one more year." (1941 cabinet meeting to discuss going to war with the Western countries.)
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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by ghost1275 » 14 Feb 2024 18:01

OpanaPointer wrote:
06 Feb 2024 23:01
"They bit off more than they could chew" as the old saying goes.

As Showa said at one Cabinet meeting: "You have told me for the last four years that the war in China would only last one more year." (1941 cabinet meeting to discuss going to war with the Western countries.)
Sino Japanese War started with Kwantung Army’s attack on Chinese troops stationed in Manchuria. The decision of going to war was made by the army leadership without inputs from Tokyo.

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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by OpanaPointer » 14 Feb 2024 18:23

And the "brass" didn't jerk their leash.
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ghost1275
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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by ghost1275 » 14 Feb 2024 20:08

Japan had the most dysfunctional political-military posture among all major combatants. IJA held political clout while most resources went to IJN. Army had a lock on government foreign policy, inter services cooperation was dismal, even at tactical level

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by T. A. Gardner » 11 Mar 2024 17:34

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
26 Dec 2023 22:58
Not with the approach used. The Mongols and the Manchu conquered the empire outright. The Europeans collectively made a job of it in the 19th Century with a indirect proxy approach.

The Japanese approach 1937: Colonel Sir, the First Battalion has invaded China! Col. X - "OMG, muster the Regiment, they will need help!"

General Sir! First Regiment has invaded China! General Y - "They will need artillery right away, get it rolling. And alert the other regiments!

Field Marshal your honor, First Army has invaded China! Marshal Z - "Fetch my sword and horse. I must hasten after them for I am their leader!"

Emperor! The Kwantung Army has invaded China! Emperor - "If they are losing behead the leaders. If they are winning send more armies."


Timing is everything. had the Japanese rolled in at the height of the Warlord era, fourteen years earlier the Gods might have favored them.
I would add to that...

"Total victory is just around the corner! Order another offensive!"

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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by OpanaPointer » 11 Mar 2024 18:30

ghost1275 wrote:
14 Feb 2024 20:08
Japan had the most dysfunctional political-military posture among all major combatants. IJA held political clout while most resources went to IJN. Army had a lock on government foreign policy, inter services cooperation was dismal, even at tactical level
IJN had equal leverage in that either party could pull their representative and kill the current cabinet, requiring new elections. The 1937, IIRC, constitutional revisions included a clause that required the Naval and Army cabinet members had to be active duty.
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ghost1275
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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by ghost1275 » 12 Mar 2024 17:11

OpanaPointer wrote:
11 Mar 2024 18:30


IJN had equal leverage in that either party could pull their representative and kill the current cabinet, requiring new elections. The 1937, IIRC, constitutional revisions included a clause that required the Naval and Army cabinet members had to be active duty.
Additional stipulation requires army and navy minister candidates must be granted approval from their respective services. In other words, the military held the power to bring down the cabinet. IJA did enjoy more political clouts than its rival. For instance, it was Kwantung Army instigated military operation that led to the occupation of Manchuria, without input from General Staff nor civilian government.

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Re: If Only Chinese history would have been different.....

Post by OpanaPointer » 12 Mar 2024 23:26

Your wording is more concise. My memories of the English version of that article is 30+ years old. One of those thin black books you find in the stacks either by hard work or dumb luck.
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