Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 9166
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 29 Jun 2022 02:28

Von Schadewald wrote:
28 Jun 2022 23:48
At 1.30 in this clip, the general tells Roosevelt: "If the Japanese invade us right now, they could penetrate as far as Chicago before we could stop them!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFhY6IaUJ40
I don't have the transcripts of Roosevelts meetings at the time. From what I have read it looks like a overly dramatic Hollywood distortion of about every detail. I suspect there was no such grand meeting as depicted, with all the heavyweights around a table. It was not Roosevelts style, preferring smaller more productive meetings aimed at specific items. Having sat through 50+ years of meetings Im with him on that.
Were these words actually said, and was this the actual paltriness of US defences at that time?
The US had started mobilization in the late summer of 1940. All the Army and Navy reservists had been called to active service, the National Guard ordered into Federal service and incorporated into the US Army. Over one million men had been recruited as volunteers & drafted into the Army and navy. In December 1941 the US was around the two million man mark in the US Army, with over 40 ground combat divisions organized and equipped. Conversely the Japanese cargo fleet then was under six million tons, which was grossly inadequate to support a army across the entire Pacfic. What the scene represents is the sense of extreme surprise and near panic in the winter of 1941-42.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 5013
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by OpanaPointer » 29 Jun 2022 02:48

ljadw wrote:
27 Jun 2022 20:32
In an alliance with the US Japan would be only a satellite .
LOL
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by ljadw » 29 Jun 2022 05:33

It is the truth .
US would demand disarmament of Japan, withdrawal from China, Manchuria,Korea.
Japan wanted to be the dominant power in South-East-Asia ,something US refused .

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3603
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by Takao » 29 Jun 2022 11:16

ljadw wrote:
27 Jun 2022 20:32
In an alliance with the US Japan would be only a satellite .
Better to be the right hand of a god then trampled under his feet.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 5013
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by OpanaPointer » 29 Jun 2022 12:18

ljadw wrote:
29 Jun 2022 05:33
It is the truth .
US would demand disarmament of Japan, withdrawal from China, Manchuria,Korea.
Japan wanted to be the dominant power in South-East-Asia ,something US refused .
Or offer an alternative, help Japan become the power it is today via industrialization and trade.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by ljadw » 29 Jun 2022 13:53

OpanaPointer wrote:
29 Jun 2022 12:18
ljadw wrote:
29 Jun 2022 05:33
It is the truth .
US would demand disarmament of Japan, withdrawal from China, Manchuria,Korea.
Japan wanted to be the dominant power in South-East-Asia ,something US refused .
Or offer an alternative, help Japan become the power it is today via industrialization and trade.
Japan did not want the alternative in 1941,neither would US offer this alternative, besides this alternative was not possible in 1941 .

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1702
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Spain

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by Peter89 » 29 Jun 2022 13:57

OpanaPointer wrote:
29 Jun 2022 12:18
ljadw wrote:
29 Jun 2022 05:33
It is the truth .
US would demand disarmament of Japan, withdrawal from China, Manchuria,Korea.
Japan wanted to be the dominant power in South-East-Asia ,something US refused .
Or offer an alternative, help Japan become the power it is today via industrialization and trade.
That would be close to impossible. The markets Japan could use for its development were colonies almost without exception.

Also Japan was so far ahead of the region both in economy and in military that no bilateral agreement was possible as long as Japan wasn't controlled by an external power which was clearly stronger than Japan.

The USA entered the war not for ideologies or pennies: but to create a new world order. And part of that new world order was the abolition of colonial empires. They realized what the peacemakers after WW1 did not: Germany, Japan, etc. must have a future and an economic stability that does not depend more on their neighbours than the neighbours' economy on them. This idea (so far the best idea) stood in direct contrast with British, French, Dutch, Portuguese, etc. ideas.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by ljadw » 29 Jun 2022 13:58

The Japanese were in 1941 still traumatized by the visit of Commodore Perry in 1853 and the Japanese army would never accept a withdrawal from China after the tens of thousands of deaths it had suffered in this war .It would revolt,with the support of the people,and kill everyone who was willing to do concessions to the Americans .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13127
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by ljadw » 29 Jun 2022 14:12

Takao wrote:
29 Jun 2022 11:16
ljadw wrote:
27 Jun 2022 20:32
In an alliance with the US Japan would be only a satellite .
Better to be the right hand of a god then trampled under his feet.
Not for the samurai with their bushido doctrine : honor was more important than death . A glorious death meant honor .It was better to die than to give up honor .

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 5013
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by OpanaPointer » 29 Jun 2022 14:26

The maniacal samurai were a minority. Helping the moderates might have tipped the scales in their favor. (No guarantees, of course.)
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3603
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by Takao » 29 Jun 2022 14:32

ljadw wrote:
29 Jun 2022 14:12
Takao wrote:
29 Jun 2022 11:16
ljadw wrote:
27 Jun 2022 20:32
In an alliance with the US Japan would be only a satellite .
Better to be the right hand of a god then trampled under his feet.
Not for the samurai with their bushido doctrine : honor was more important than death . A glorious death meant honor .It was better to die than to give up honor .
There were no Samurai in 1940, having been long ago dissolved.

Further, given the tread title, becoming a US satellite is the best outcome for Japan with hindsight.

OpanaPointer
Member
Posts: 5013
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by OpanaPointer » 29 Jun 2022 14:47

"Samurai-mindset" if you will then.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3603
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by Takao » 29 Jun 2022 16:12

OpanaPointer wrote:
29 Jun 2022 14:47
"Samurai-mindset" if you will then.
Ultra-Nationalist militant mindset is more to the point.

Even Samurai had to obey their master, while the Japanese Ultra-Nationalist militants only paid lip service to obeying the Emperor, their master.

glenn239
Member
Posts: 5586
Joined: 29 Apr 2005 01:20
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by glenn239 » 29 Jun 2022 17:22

Takao wrote:
29 Jun 2022 00:29
I missed the part where the Japanese Alien Space Bats took Vladivostok.
Who cares what you missed?

The question was why would the Americans send military aid to Japanese occupied Vladivostok.

glenn239
Member
Posts: 5586
Joined: 29 Apr 2005 01:20
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

Post by glenn239 » 29 Jun 2022 17:25

ljadw wrote:
29 Jun 2022 05:33
US would demand disarmament of Japan, withdrawal from China, Manchuria,Korea.
The US can certainly demand Japan withdraw from China and Korea, but they'd be hopeless to make the Soviets do so.

Return to “What if”