A Urainian ORBAT with Germanic touches

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A Urainian ORBAT with Germanic touches

Post by AnchorSteam » 16 Feb 2023 21:44

I have been following events in the Russo-Ukraine war and have made note of new weapons systems entering the fray via the West. Lately, this appears to include;
138 x HMVVs
200 x Senator armored vehicles
55 x MRAPs
100 x M113
40 x Marder
50 x Bradley
10 x AMX-10 armored cars
60 +(?) x Leo II MTBs
18 x M-109 S.P. 155mm Artillery
36 x 105mm how. (towed)

This includes what has been promised as well as what is already arriving.

And, hopefully, the shipments will include lots of trucks, AA guns & missiles, and Engineer units that can get the Leo IIs across a river. I have an idea for how to organize it all into a unit that can be used to mount the kind of offensives that will be needed for Ukraine to end this war.
Yes, ONE unit, so that the the maintenance unites for all this unique gear can be concentrated in the one place it is needed. In this case, putting all the eggs in one basket is the only way to keep it all in good fighting trim.
Note that I am not including the dozen Challengers from the UK in this. The only real use I see for one Company of unique tanks like that is a sort of Presidential Guard in Kiev. That is probably what is going to happen in any case, and they can serve as a deterrent to another quick thrust from Bellaruss.
This will be a large unit, but not really a Division, and only a battalion or two larger than a Brigade. I could call it a Brivion…. sounds better than a Digade, yeah? :milwink:

To start with, I would like to see units organized in a way that they would actually be deployed, instead of always mixing them up during deployment. Unit cohesion matters here, and if the tankers, Infantry and MICV crews all know each other from the barracks then so much the better. This is a key item; coordination between infantry and tanks has always been difficult, the best armies in the world have had trouble with this, and the Ukraine cannot afford to lose irreplaceable tanks because of that. I WANT the tankers looking over their shoulder and seeing men they know in close contact with them, regardless of terrain or how eager the tankers are to exploit an opening.

Ukraine seems wedded to the old Soviet type of Company and Battalion organization, so I will stick with the numbers involved there. Can’t ask them to take on too many new ideas at once, after all.

All Companies will be made of 3 x platoons + 1 x command vehicle
3 x tanks
3 x MICV
3 x M113
1 x Bradley

In two out of three Companies the MICVs will be Marders, so that each Battalion will have 6 x Marder and 5 x Bradley. I want there to be at least one 20 or 25mm auto-cannon to cover each and every one of those high-dollar tanks. The M113s are in the front lines because they can carry 10 x Infantry, the Bradley and Marder appear to have been configured to carry 6 each.
There will also be 2 x M113s for Battalion command. I don’t want Battalion commanders in the thick of it. They need to hang back and keep 30 vehicles under control.

These appear to be balanced units and there is enough for 6 x Battalions of this type, and leaves enough MICV for a couple of other important things.

Before I move on, something that I have trouble finding a use for is the 105s. The firepower of a mortar combined with the fuss & bother of a towed artillery piece, they seem to be headed for the wrong war. There are enough (just) to give each Battalion a battery of 6 guns each. The problem is how advanced counter-battery action is with the Russians. Towed units are not doing very well, and the only advantage these guns have over mortars is their mobility.
Massing all 36 of the 105mm is a tempting alternative. They could be standing by to smother and counter-battery fire against the M-109s, or they could be used to draw fire so that the M-109s can do the counter fire. The later option is probably more likely since the M-109s have a considerably greater range with their 155mm. However, putting all the 105s into a super-battery for any mission requires some Arty bosses that really know what they are doing. So, I guess it is more likely that these guns will be in separate batteries for each Battalion.
A pity, that....

There will be another maneuver battalion, for Reconnaissance.
The Senators from Canada seem solid enough on paper, but are just large armored SUVs. Since we have them, might as well use them, but I have no information on how good their off-road mobility really is.
A basic recon platoon will look like this;
1 x AMX-10
1 x Bradley
6 x Senators
Four of the Senators will carry a 4-man dismount team of scouts. I suggest a twin-mounting for 7.62mm MGs, one of them being on a quick-release mount so that one of the dismounts can take it with him. The rest should have a radio, a rifle suitable for sniping, and a grenade launcher. For the last one, I suggest the Inkunzi 20mm, a very nice piece of kit that should give the Russians a few surprises.


The fascinating part about that thing is how it is based on a German 20mm cannon cartridge developed for the Luftwaffe in the 1930s!

The other two Senators are for firepower; one with some sort of AA (ManPAD or a 14.5mm MG) and the other with a small MRLS, a rack of rockets anywhere from 76mm to 110. The heavier vehicles are the real protection for this unit, but a sudden barrage of rockets will be important for getting this platoon out of trouble, and these weapons are available locally.

There will be six of these platoons, enough for 2 x Companies, or one for each front-line Battalion.

For a light Company (and a stand-by in case the Senators don’t work out) there will be 24 x HMVV and 12 x Motorcycles. I don’t like the HMVV so much for this role since it only carries half as many dismounts, and they are noisy. The Motorcycles are they because they are available, and being able to quickly sneak through tight areas could be valuable. This company has 48 dismounts, just as many as the other companies, and could be better for urban operations. I suggest a mix of 12.7mm MGs and automatic grenade launchers for the HMVVs.

Lastly, there is a heavy Company of 4 x AMX, 4 x Bradley and 4 x MRAP (or M113... but those would have to come from somewhere else). The AMX armored cars are well-known, and so is the Bradley. The Bradley I see as the over-watch protection and the best tank-killer they are likely to have. It is also large and noisy, so the AMX is going to be the one working more closely with the Senators. This heavy unit is set aside as a reserve and for the tougher jobs.
With over 90 vehicles this unit will be excellent for screening and flank security during a rapid advance.

And now for a concept lifted directly from the old Panzer Divisions of WW2-

This is an important unit, and I took the idea for this from the old Panzer Divisions that had an integral TRAINING AND REPLACEMENT column.
This unit will require 65 experienced cadre and has a capacity of 200 new men with basic training behind them, but need of more instruction before being committed. The mix of equipment is extensive;
4 x Marder
5 x Bradley
6 x M113
6 x Tanks
1 x MRAP
3 x HMVV
4 x Senator
6 x trucks
One of each type of support weapon should be included plus samples of all the small arms. If the 105s are used for Battalion support a couple of those should be included.
This unit is NOT for combat. It is there to bring everyone up to speed on as many different weapon systems as possible, get them used to maneuvers and even give the maintenance units something to practice with. This is where replacement personnel and even replacement vehicles will come from during campaigns. The compliment of armored vehicles will diminish, but those that can be recovered from the front and repaired will go here first.

Artillery; I hope the M-109s come with ammo carriers on the same chassis but I don’t know for sure. They should have dedicated AAA & AAM batteries to protect them.
The 105s could be towed by armored trucks, it is the only series job for the MRAPs that I can think of. This should encourage the crews to try to save their guns when under fire instead of just leaving them when things start to get hot. Needless to say, the more skilled and motivated cannon-cockers will be with the 155mm batteries.
And, wow, that is 54 barrels, a Division’s worth of artillery. A lot for a Brigade or even a Brivon, but it will take a lot to overwhelm the best Russian units.

Air defense; There must be AAMs, of course, but there also should be Gepard batteries. I have heard that there may be 17 of them there, so there ought to be 12 that are reliable enough to travel with these mixed battalions. Yes, I know that they have been used to protect cities, but the Gepard is made to give tank units protection built with the mobility of a tank. This is where they need to be if new offensives are to succeed.

There are also Support and Command units to consider;

Logistics will need a minimum of 300 men, 140 x trucks, 2 x HMVV, 4 x light trucks (“trucks” already exist in Ukraine, and I am going to be non-specific because a hodge-podge of various types is what we are likely to get in any case)
Medical units I estimate at 215 men with 40 x trucks, 8 x off-road light trucks, and 8 x M113s working as battlefield ambulances.
Maintenance can’t get by with less than 200 TRAINED specialists (plus 200 trainees) and 56 trucks/recovery vehicles/etc., 6 x light trucks/cars & 2 motorcycles. I can also give them 3 Senator vehicles to react to snipers.
Engineers can’t settle for less than 250 men, 8 x HMVV, 4 x light trucks and 44 trucks & special machines (including that bridging column) and 8 x motorcycles.

Yes, I know modern tech has reduced the manpower requirements for all the above units, but these units need to be able to absorb casualties too, and the Replacement Column can’t fill the special needs of these units.

Command & Control requires 300 men, 10 x HMVV, 8 x Senator, 3 x M113, 20 x trucks, 6 x light trucks/offroad cars, and 6 x motorcycles.
MPs; 42 men, 4 x HMVV, 2 x Senator, 1 x truck, 12 x Motorcycles
Security Detail; 66 men, 4 x HMVV, 6 x Senator (with 2 x ManPAD), 6 x motorcycles, 2 x Bradley.

Motorcycles…. why not? If communications get jammed or if you just need to put a pair of eyes on something, they are very economical and widely available.

This "Brivion" can be broken in half or into thirds. In fact it is designed that way. The command unit, however, is not, and I don’t think that six maneuver battalions are too much for a competent headquarters. After a year of combat there must be some very competent Headquarters people in the Ukraine.
It also is not all that large a unit, thanks in part to the small size of the Battalions.This is part of why there are no Regiment HQs, I also regard those as redundant just as the Soviets decided the Corps HQ was during the Cold War.

So, good enough, or too much?

James A Pratt III
Posts: 894
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 00:08
Location: Texas

Re: A Urainian ORBAT with Germanic touches

Post by James A Pratt III » 24 Feb 2023 21:00

Having served in the US Army. This will cause a maintenance and supply nightmare. Things are bad enough for the Ukraine as it is with all sort of vehicles coming into the country. Here is what I would do:
Lets call the units:
US Brigade: 1 Bn (battalion) BIFV, 2 Bns M-113s, and possibly 1 Bn MRAPs, 1 Bn M-109 Sps. The HMVVs would be used by all units. Any leftover BIFVs, M-113s and MRAPs will be kept in reserve to replace losses. Some M-113s will be used as ambulances, Mortar carriers, ATGM vehicles engineer vehicles ect. MRAPs similar. A Bn of US tanks like M-1 Abrams as well as all US equipment would be nice

German Brigade: 2 Bns Leopard IIs, 1 Bn Marders, another Bn with German APCs would by nice and all German other equipment would be nice.

Canadian Brigade: A motorized Infantry Brigade used to hold long stretches of quite sectors of the front. Give them all the Senators, all the 105mms in 2 Bns and the AMX-10s in a recon company. I have read the French may be sending 50 of them so have them in a Bn. Send all other French and Canadian equipment to this unit. Unless there is enough other equipment to equip a French brigade which is where the AMX-10s will go.

I hope this of some interest or use.

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