What if Poland accepts the alliance with Hitler?

[wm]

I rather think the 'shortly before the war' is the key here. If there is one thing that would unite everyone other than the peasants, is was threats and (perhaps worse) insults against Poland;

It was written in May 1939, if I'm not mistaken. And he says it didn't happen suddenly, but it was a long-term process:

Priests and teachers are the instruments with the help of which the politically unformed mass of villagers are governed and influenced.

And I don't think Polish newspapers printed many Hitler's threats (if any). The media was so docile that for many (especially for the Jews), the war came totally unexpected.

[RedTelephone]

Hi RedTelephone

What you conclude is, I am sure, true. However, the Slovak example is useful - dispite all, the Jewish population of Slovakia suffered horribly but less than the Jewish population of Poland. And, I would suggest, while Adolf may have had little baseline regard for Poles, what turned that into a flaming hatred was the fact that the Poles had the temerity to say 'no' to him and it is how to avoid this 'no' is what we are talking about here.

There was an attempt to raise a Polish legion from November '44 with HQ in Krakow. The Germans apparently were hopeful of up to 175K volunteers; in reality 471 materialised (and how many of these were 'volunteers' is debatable). They never served as a unit in the field. A much more productive method was simply relabelling Polish citizens as 'Germans', which of course made them liable for call-up and some 225K served in this fashion (this figure includes Polish citizens of German ethnicity, I believe). There is, of course, the separate issue of Polish citizens of non-Polish ethnicity such as the Ukrainians who made up a sizeable proportion of Waffen SS Division 14 Galizien etc and no doubt some ethnic Poles who served in this and other SS formations. However, you are quite right that there was no Polish military formation that fought for the 3rd Reich.

Yes I see.. i have often wondered about the frequency of Polish surnames in both the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht. I believe many Polish children deemed ‘ Aryan’ enough were sent to Germany to be adopted.
You are right about the consequences of saying ‘no’ to AH.. perhaps indeed that was the major Polish mistake. Having said it didnt help the pro German Baltic or Ukrainian nationalists much regards occupation policies ?
I digress..
Would an alliance have averted WW2?
It would have delayed it I think and made a relatively ‘ peaceful’ takeover of Poland possible as per Austria/ Czech/ Hungary -rather than invasion more likely.
Would it have then triggered a 1939 war with Russia instead and then WW2?
Possibly but everything I’ve read indicates that Stalin wanted to avoid war with Germany whilst acknowledging that it was probable eventually.
Of course if Britain and France had their treaty with Poland so they would have come in with Germany against Russia then.
Mental cartwheels of ifs and buts!

[RedTelephone]

My understanding ( and I wouldn't claim to be any expert) is that AH had a pathological hatred of Poles in particular- over and above his general contempt of Slavic peoples.

Well, I don't know any Hitler's statement expressing his hatred of Poles.
He believed the Poles were civilizationally inferior (which could have been defended) and attributed it to less valuable blood - called genes today (which was unscientific.) The Polish elites were better, especially the "Polish generals who genuinely put up a serious resistance in 1939" because they were of German descent (unhistorical).

Hitler and the top Nazis were friendly toward the Poles until March 1939. More friendly than the Poles were ready to accept.
Of course, all top Nazis (except Himmler) were able to be political if needed.
But Polish diplomats, during the several-month negotiations in 1938/1939, believed Hitler genuinely wanted an understanding with Poland and genuinely considered his offer generous.
Hitler admired the Polish leader Piłsudski all his life. Goebbels wrote in his diary in the thirties, the Nazis would have to learn from the Poles the skills of efficient governance (meaning the contemporary Sanacja government.)

He said this in 1942:

Where should we be today if the Czechs had had a little imagination, or if the Poles had been realists and had gone about their affairs with a little more honesty?
It is precisely the fact that the Pole is a dreamer and the Czech is an out-and-out realist which has enabled us swiftly and successfully to establish the new order in the territories formerly known as Czechoslovakia and Poland.

I think it's a mistake to claim he was motivated by hate.
His actions, if we disregard morality whatsoever, although reckless, were rational.

Hi wm
Thats really interesting. Thanks for that. Perhaps I am picking up on post war brush stroke interpretations.
Would love to read more about this interwar ‘ diplomatic’ intrigue/ perceptions/ discussions.
And in particular AH / Goebbels comments both in private and public on the issue of Poland .

Could you advise some good reading material?
( I admit the only bio Ive read on AH is the 2 part Kershaw one)

Cheers

[gebhk]

I have placed my death-head formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language.

Doesn't sound particularly amicable.

The Polish elites were better, especially the "Polish generals who genuinely put up a serious resistance in 1939" because they were of German descent (unhistorical).

And yet in his speech of 6 October, he said pretty much the opposite, praising the bravery of the common Polish soldier (received rather coldly by the assembled masses), describing the mid-ranking officers as useless and mocking the leadership (to rapturous applause!).

His actions, if we disregard morality whatsoever, although reckless, were rational.

I am not sure that morality comes into it. While few people would subscribe to his morality, I don't think he acted outside his own code of morals. I would agree that he was a realist insomuch as he acted realistically but only in the context of his own delusional universe. The same can be said about a great many lunatics.

[RedTelephone]

Thats what I thought his opinion was of Poles and the rest.
I was sure he wrote or spoke of his hatred towards Poles in particular. Perhaps I am mistaken.
The plans for Czech / Ukraine / East etc were the same:
And Heydrich spelt it out in writing as ‘ Protector’.
Aryanise the Germanic types.
Use the ‘ in betweens’ for admin/ running country.
Execute or deport or slave / starve to death everyone else.
Settle / colonise with Germanics.

‘ rational’ ?
In as much as a serial killer filled with hate of whatever group he kills has a distinct and stereotypical plan and rationale..and goes about his business in a calm methodical and devious way. The murders are ‘ rational’ in that sense.

Its what set the Nazi regime apart- unremitting hate- from other conquering empires of the past.
So I would argue , wm, that almost all of NS policy was derived and guided by hate of the ‘ other’. ( couched in scientific and rational terms prevelant in the era).
Hitler justified the extermination/ race war by quoting the history of :
Genghis Khan / Mongols ( Waffen SS officer school compulsory reading)
The colonisation of the Americas
The Turks military junta genocide of Armenians.

All 3 analogies were quite incorrect.( Armenian scenario probably the closest) .

He was I believe , like every good psychopath who wants something, very charming and rational in the 1933-41 era.

Anyway I digress again lol. This forum good at making me do that haha.

[gebhk]

Hi RedTelephone

You are not digressing at all, because Hitler's personality is absolutely key to this whole discussion. Oddly, your hate-driven serial killer analogy popped into my head too.They also sometimes justify murdering specific groups of people very rationally in their own minds as a crusade to get rid of some moral or physical 'danger' to humanity. Great minds etc.....

[ljadw]

Contrary to popular belief, when Hitler came to power, relations between Poland and Germany improved.

Hitler came to propose an anti-Soviet alliance to Poland in the 30s but this was flatly refused.

If Poland had accepted, how would everything have changed? Was there a second world war?

A German-Polish alliance against the USSR would result in the end of Poland as an independent state .Poland could only survive if the 1919 statu quo continued .
Poland needed the existence of a Russian state against the German threat and the existence of a German state against the Russian threat .
And I like to see the proofs that Hitler proposed an alliance to Poland against the USSR, as before 1939 Germany had not the means to fight against the Soviets .

[Loïc]

I'm afraid I do not see where your certainty of a civil war comes from or that the Poles were solidly pro-French and solidly anti-German.

Well, you could ask the German ambassador in Warsaw, believed to be an expert on Poland.
And he wrote this to Berlin shortly before the war:

The greatest part of the Polish intelligentsia considers themselves the mainstay of Polish nationalism and for the Polish State, and their national revolutionary tradition has filled them with a national fanaticism which is not easily shaken by hostile propaganda.

The great landowners and the upper middle class, … are intimately connected with French culture and therefore do not far short of the rest of the intelligentsia in their dislike of Germany.
…
The great masses of the Polish peasant population are obtuse and ignorant, and the majority are illiterate and easily managed by any government that appeals to them with clear national slogans.
Even the more advanced part of the peasant population is on the anti-German side.
…
The Polish workmen, … are mostly Marxians, which is in itself sufficient to make them hostile to National-Socialist Germany.
Moreover, their political organization still retains old traditions from the struggle for national liberty, traditions which made it easier for them to join hands with middle-class nationalists in their fight against Germany.

A lower middle class of a distinctively Polish character hardly exists in Poland. Its place is taken by a strong Jewish element without national feeling. …
This Jewish middle class in Poland is, as far as the struggle against Germany is concerned, a natural and fanatical ally of Polish chauvinism.
…
the Polish clergy, whose influence is extremely great because of the strong religious feeling prevalent in all classes, … put themselves the more willingly and unreservedly at the disposal of the Polish anti-German propaganda as their own aims completely coincide with those of the State.
They preach to the nation that Poland is on the verge of waging a holy war against German neo-paganism, and they can hardly be surpassed in their chauvinism.

The special structure of the Polish population and the propaganda which has been skilfully adapted to it, have had the effect that in Poland, even among the masses, the determination to resist obviously continues unbroken.
100 Documents of the Origin of the War Selected from official German White Book 1939

to complete wm, from the "other side" the French Ambassadors and Military Attaché General Musse in Warsaw etc...

pot pourri :
Polish state of mind is rather "francophile, germanophobic and even more sovietophobic", contempt towards Czechoslovakia

the collapse of their neighbor is gladly seen, considered as unviable and irredeemably condamned

constant francophilia of a large part of the Polish public opinion who remains reluctant to the policy of rapprochment and complacency led by Beck with Germany, the distrut has not diminished and the Army remains traditionnally francophile despite an agressive campaign from the newspapers controlled by the government against France accused to support Lituania

immense pride and exacerbated self-esteem of the Poles, State Education Press Clergy overestimate the power of the country and distort the judgement of the Army cadres that Poland can beat Germany without external help, and so, that France doesn't need to search an alliance with Soviet Union, extreme sensitivity towards Soviet Union and hostility to any alliance, hatred of the Russian ("they think we are savage beasts" said the Soviet Military Attaché to his French counterpart)

[wm]

That's really atrocious, tabloid writing - unbecoming of a diplomat.

[wm]

I have placed my death-head formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language.

Doesn't sound particularly amicable.

Yes, it doesn't, but it's as fake as it gets too. It's from that forgery by Louis P. Lochner.

And yet in his speech of 6 October, he said pretty much the opposite, praising the bravery of the common Polish soldier (received rather coldly by the assembled masses), describing the mid-ranking officers as useless and mocking the leadership (to rapturous applause!).

That's the difference between public, political speech and private conversations with the most trusted associates. That the Polish leaders betrayed the masses was the central theme of Nazi propaganda. Propaganda doesn't need to be true; it must only be effective.

[wm]

Its what set the Nazi regime apart- unremitting hate- from other conquering empires of the past.
So I would argue , wm, that almost all of NS policy was derived and guided by hate of the ‘ other’. ( couched in scientific and rational terms prevelant in the era).

Rational means it had to be done, it was necessary. Germany's victory, to be even remotely possible required it.
The millions of Soviet POWs had to be starved to death, and to a lesser degree the "unworthy to live" eliminated - and the Jews, and the Polish nation decapitated (after all, the Soviets did it regularly, and lots of people still love them).
Germany was way too weak to do it in a civilized, British way.

All 3 analogies were quite incorrect.( Armenian scenario probably the closest) .

The closest and the fakest of them all. There is no evidence he ever said it.

[wm]

Could you advise some good reading material?

It's from "Hitler's Table Talk" and "Goebbels Diaries." I don't really know if there are good reading; it certainly requires acquired taste.

The rest are from the massive volumes of "Polish Documents on Foreign Policy."
The problem is only a tiny part is translated ("Polish Documents on Foreign Policy. 24 October 1938 - 30 September 1939.")
And they require acquired taste too.

[Loïc]

That's really atrocious, tabloid writing - unbecoming of a diplomat.

of course because it is not an official report but various abstracts observations sentences I compiled from several pages and articles from officials in post in Warsaw, as said a "pot pourri"

[ljadw]

I'm afraid I do not see where your certainty of a civil war comes from or that the Poles were solidly pro-French and solidly anti-German.

Well, you could ask the German ambassador in Warsaw, believed to be an expert on Poland.
And he wrote this to Berlin shortly before the war:

The greatest part of the Polish intelligentsia considers themselves the mainstay of Polish nationalism and for the Polish State, and their national revolutionary tradition has filled them with a national fanaticism which is not easily shaken by hostile propaganda.

The great landowners and the upper middle class, … are intimately connected with French culture and therefore do not far short of the rest of the intelligentsia in their dislike of Germany.
…
The great masses of the Polish peasant population are obtuse and ignorant, and the majority are illiterate and easily managed by any government that appeals to them with clear national slogans.
Even the more advanced part of the peasant population is on the anti-German side.
…
The Polish workmen, … are mostly Marxians, which is in itself sufficient to make them hostile to National-Socialist Germany.
Moreover, their political organization still retains old traditions from the struggle for national liberty, traditions which made it easier for them to join hands with middle-class nationalists in their fight against Germany.

A lower middle class of a distinctively Polish character hardly exists in Poland. Its place is taken by a strong Jewish element without national feeling. …
This Jewish middle class in Poland is, as far as the struggle against Germany is concerned, a natural and fanatical ally of Polish chauvinism.
…
the Polish clergy, whose influence is extremely great because of the strong religious feeling prevalent in all classes, … put themselves the more willingly and unreservedly at the disposal of the Polish anti-German propaganda as their own aims completely coincide with those of the State.
They preach to the nation that Poland is on the verge of waging a holy war against German neo-paganism, and they can hardly be surpassed in their chauvinism.

The special structure of the Polish population and the propaganda which has been skilfully adapted to it, have had the effect that in Poland, even among the masses, the determination to resist obviously continues unbroken.
100 Documents of the Origin of the War Selected from official German White Book 1939

to complete wm, from the "other side" the French Ambassadors and Military Attaché General Musse in Warsaw etc...

pot pourri :
Polish state of mind is rather "francophile, germanophobic and even more sovietophobic", contempt towards Czechoslovakia

the collapse of their neighbor is gladly seen, considered as unviable and irredeemably condamned

constant francophilia of a large part of the Polish public opinion who remains reluctant to the policy of rapprochment and complacency led by Beck with Germany, the distrut has not diminished and the Army remains traditionnally francophile despite an agressive campaign from the newspapers controlled by the government against France accused to support Lituania

immense pride and exacerbated self-esteem of the Poles, State Education Press Clergy overestimate the power of the country and distort the judgement of the Army cadres that Poland can beat Germany without external help, and so, that France doesn't need to search an alliance with Soviet Union, extreme sensitivity towards Soviet Union and hostility to any alliance, hatred of the Russian ("they think we are savage beasts" said the Soviet Military Attaché to his French counterpart)

What the German ambassador in Warsaw,whose knowledge of Poland was limited to what he heard in the salons of Warsaw,told Berlin,was what he knew Berlin wanted to hear, otherwise,his career would be very quickly ended .

[gebhk]

Yes, it doesn't, but it's as fake as it gets too. It's from that forgery by Louis P. Lochner.

Yes it is, of course, from Loechner, one of three records of two speeches given by Adolf on the same day. I think the most commonly held view is that Loechner is an amalgam of the two speeches. However, since none of them is a verbatim log, it's anyone's guess which bits are entirely genuine, which are genuinely mis-remembered and which, if any, are fabrications (ie fake). In short we are have no way of knowing if the above is fake or not.

Ultimately the researchers problem is that Adolf was trying to present to the world an image that he was going to war as a very reasonable, long-suffering victim of abuse by the country he was invading and that it was regrettable that he was being forced to do this. He did not want to inflame public opinion among Poland's allies so as to precipitate an immediate response. Expresions of a heart-felt desire to spit roast Polish babies alive had no place in such a narrative. Thus, official (and therefore well documented), messages are unlikely to convey much of his true feelings, while expressions of true feelings would have been made in private or confidentially, often be unrecorded and therefore we are reliant on the memories of others for their content, with all the threats to reliability and validity that that entails.

However, I find actions to be a good indicator. I think we know what happened in Poland from the get-go and, personally, I think that clearly indicates that it is quite likely that he said what Loechner says he said or something very much like it.