Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

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Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Princess Perfume » 02 Apr 2023 16:50

This may not quite be ASB as he sometimes had bouts but meritous lucidity.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Konig_pilsner » 02 Apr 2023 18:14

Army Group Center gets routed/destroyed in late December 1941 in front of Moscow. Decades later he is blamed for not ordering them to hold in place.

KP

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by T. A. Gardner » 02 Apr 2023 18:30

Konig_pilsner wrote:
02 Apr 2023 18:14
Army Group Center gets routed/destroyed in late December 1941 in front of Moscow. Decades later he is blamed for not ordering them to hold in place.

KP
This actually varied by army and corps commanders, and likely would have turned out much like it did in any case. Some of the armies in AGC, like the 4th under von Kluge, went over to the defensive early. Others didn't. Neither Hitler, nor the OKW had a full grasp of the situation on the ground at the front. The individual generals were not of one mind as to how to proceed. Instead, the more aggressive ones pushed forward and tried one last gasp attacks to break the Russian front and take cities. The less aggressive saw things grinding to a halt and foot drug as they gave their units time to begin to go over to the defense and prepare positions for the winter.

So, it is far more nuanced than you make it out to be.

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Peter89 » 02 Apr 2023 20:05

We have no idea what would have happened if Hitler doesn't forbid retreats. His orders kept more territories under German control, but some of these territories were dangerously exposed and presented a major drain throughout 1942 as well. The German army had high morale and it was fighting for its survival in the winter of 1941-1942, thus, it is folly to think that they'd march on captivity easily.

Also the Soviet forces were not able to advance much further than they did. A bit more elastic German defence might have been actually beneficial.
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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Princess Perfume » 03 Apr 2023 07:59

Although Hitler was never as silly as Superman (Israel and the Soviet Union want to have a word, Supes...):

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Konig_pilsner » 04 Apr 2023 05:40

This actually varied by army and corps commanders, and likely would have turned out much like it did in any case. Some of the armies in AGC, like the 4th under von Kluge, went over to the defensive early. Others didn't. Neither Hitler, nor the OKW had a full grasp of the situation on the ground at the front. The individual generals were not of one mind as to how to proceed. Instead, the more aggressive ones pushed forward and tried one last gasp attacks to break the Russian front and take cities. The less aggressive saw things grinding to a halt and foot drug as they gave their units time to begin to go over to the defense and prepare positions for the winter.

So, it is far more nuanced than you make it out to be.
Possibly one of the dumbest responses from a long time AHF member. It is ok T.A., admitting Hitler was right about something won't make your feet click together as your right arm ascends to an inappropriate angle.

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by KDF33 » 04 Apr 2023 07:17

Konig_pilsner wrote:
04 Apr 2023 05:40
Possibly one of the dumbest responses from a long time AHF member. It is ok T.A., admitting Hitler was right about something won't make your feet click together as your right arm ascends to an inappropriate angle.
T.A. Gardner is correct here. Here is a good book on the topic of the first winter campaign.

See this relevant excerpt:

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Sheldrake » 04 Apr 2023 11:49

Princess Perfume wrote:
02 Apr 2023 16:50
This may not quite be ASB as he sometimes had bouts but meritous lucidity.

Any thoughts?
German does not adopt the Manstein Plan because Hitler does not get involved.

Mauybe the German Army High Command disuade Hitler from Offensive action in 1939--1940. The Schieffen copy may have been put forward to remind the Fuhrer that he was walking into a repeat of WW1. In this case there is a long Cooling war with Germany suffering economically until the USSR invades Poland, but is stamped on by the German counter offensive.

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Konig_pilsner » 04 Apr 2023 17:57

Hey KDF33,

I have read the book, wasn't convinced. A lot of anecdotal quotes and little esle. Hitler set the tone, it was the commanders and officers responsibility to get it done and they did. That the order was unpopular and even disobeyed at times is irrelevant.

Hitler could have instead ordered a full retreat. He didn't and the Army Group held.

It is just like Case Blue. Hitler's directive clearly states to secure the flank and eliminate any bridgeheads over the Don. Paulus doesn't do it, gets encircled at Stalingrad and decades later people blame Hitler...

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Princess Perfume » 04 Apr 2023 18:07

If Hitler - post Poland but pre D/N is hands-off of military matters he doesn't understand or have skil in - how does it play out?

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Aida1 » 21 Sep 2023 15:20

Konig_pilsner wrote:
02 Apr 2023 18:14
Army Group Center gets routed/destroyed in late December 1941 in front of Moscow. Decades later he is blamed for not ordering them to hold in place.

KP
No. The halt order was wrong because it puts the authorisation for retreats at the highest level which is no good as micromanaging from far behind the front does not work. Without the halt order you will have more planned retreats than historically which will work as there were planned retreats before the halt order which succeeded. Army Group center will certainly not collapse.

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Aida1 » 21 Sep 2023 15:22

Konig_pilsner wrote:
04 Apr 2023 17:57
Hey KDF33,

I have read the book, wasn't convinced. A lot of anecdotal quotes and little esle. Hitler set the tone, it was the commanders and officers responsibility to get it done and they did. That the order was unpopular and even disobeyed at times is irrelevant.

Hitler could have instead ordered a full retreat. He didn't and the Army Group held.

It is just like Case Blue. Hitler's directive clearly states to secure the flank and eliminate any bridgeheads over the Don. Paulus doesn't do it, gets encircled at Stalingrad and decades later people blame Hitler...
Funny as it was Hitler who was obesessed about taking Stalingrad and nobody else. Without that no encirclement will happen.

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Aida1 » 21 Sep 2023 15:26

A civilian head of state should generally refrain from intervening in operational and certainly tactical matters. Hitlers growIng tendency to micromanage starting in the winter of 1941 generally worked against the german army.

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Konig_pilsner » 22 Sep 2023 05:52

No. The halt order was wrong because it puts the authorisation for retreats at the highest level which is no good as micromanaging from far behind the front does not work. Without the halt order you will have more planned retreats than historically which will work as there were planned retreats before the halt order which succeeded. Army Group center will certainly not collapse.
The halt order was right in that situation. You just proved my point that people are prejudiced against AH, which is more of an indictment on your dishonesty then it is of him.
Funny as it was Hitler who was obesessed about taking Stalingrad and nobody else. Without that no encirclement will happen.
Delusional. Hitler set a sensible goal (which is what leaders do), and gave guidance on how to achieve it. His guidance was ignored by Paulus and it led to the encirclement. His only fault was putting his faith in a weak man.
A civilian head of state should generally refrain from intervening in operational and certainly tactical matters. Hitlers growIng tendency to micromanage starting in the winter of 1941 generally worked against the german army.
I am going to be nice, since I have enjoyed your postings on logistics in the WW2 in Eastern European Section. The German Army was not in any coherent front when the counter offensive took place. The Russians with their superior mobility in winter conditions didn't fight, they skirted the German lines and threatened their rear supply. In places orderly retreats were possible, in others it was not. The weather was bad, supply was bad, communication was bad. Heavy equipment couldn't be moved, troops had to walk, if you were injured you were pulled on a sled by your comrades. The Mg's had to be warmed at campfires to work, and if they killed a Russian they fought for his winter clothing and boots.

The halt order let the Germans control the roads and villages and deprived shelter from the Russians. The attack burned out with the Russians unable to complete the encirclement taking heavy casualties, and the Germans still with in striking distance to Moscow. I cannot imagine someone in 2023 arguing that somehow the best option was for AGC to flee to Smolensk, leave all the wounded and heavy weapons behind, and that this is what would put Germany is a better position in 1942.

Kp

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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by KDF33 » 22 Sep 2023 06:41

Konig_pilsner wrote:
22 Sep 2023 05:52
Delusional. Hitler set a sensible goal (which is what leaders do), and gave guidance on how to achieve it. His guidance was ignored by Paulus and it led to the encirclement. His only fault was putting his faith in a weak man.
What sensible goal?

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