Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

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Aida1
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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Aida1 » 28 Sep 2023 20:05

per70 wrote:
28 Sep 2023 15:33
Aida1 wrote:
28 Sep 2023 14:48
Killing or capturing every man and capturing all equipment. Is what happens when you encircle enemy formations. :roll: Not what happens when you push the enemy back.
Do the German divisions encircled at Stalingrad meet this definition?

I'm wondering since a number of these divisions had manpower outside the pocket for various reasons (on leave, recovering from wounds, taking specialist courses, in the rear area by chance etc) which enabled the Germans to rebuild them based on small core of veterans.
What was left was insignificant. Setting up the 6 th army again was a matter of prestige.

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Aida1
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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Aida1 » 28 Sep 2023 20:11

KDF33 wrote:
28 Sep 2023 18:42
Aida1 wrote:
28 Sep 2023 14:48
Killing or capturing every man and capturing all equipment.
That seldom ever happens.
Is what happens when you encircle enemy formations. :roll:
That would have been news to the Soviet divisions encircled at Vyazma. I'm not sure that even one Soviet division ever lost exactly 100% of its personnel in an encirclement throughout the war.

For example, here's what happened to the divisions of the Soviet 16th Army in October 1941:

-38th Rifle Division: After two weeks of fighting, the remnants of the division, trapped in a swampy forest near the village of Kosteri, made a last attempt to break through. One group was commanded by Chief of Staff Korney Panasyuk, the other was headed by the divisional commander. Part of Panasyuk's group broke through the enemy ring, and the Kirillov group was covered with mortar fire and scattered. Maxim Gavrilovich was seriously wounded and concussed. The group of the division commander, Colonel M. G. Kirillov, failed to get out of the encirclement, on the basis of the division's servicemen, the commander formed the partisan detachment "Death to Fascism", the group of the chief of staff was able to break through to his troops.
-108th Rifle Division: On October 12, organized resistance in this sector of the front ceased. Less than one-third of the division, led by the commander, Major General N. I. Orlov, reached their own in the Dorokhovo area.
-112th Rifle Division: The remnants of the division, including the entire command staff, left the encirclement at the end of October 41 to the location of the 82nd Infantry Division. After leaving the encirclement, Colonel Kopyak was appointed commander of the 140th Rifle Division of the third formation and died in 42.
-214th Rifle Division: Communication with the 214th Infantry Division and the Motorized Rifle Regiment of the 101st Motorized Rifle Division was interrupted and could not be restored. Parts of the group at 16.00 11.10, together with units of the 19th Army, resumed actions to get out of the encirclement. Organized units of the 214th rifle division failed to break out of the Vyazma encirclement.

Of the four divisions, only the 214th seems to have approximated something close to your definition of "anihilation". But even there, it's unclear whether absolutely no men broke out and reached Soviet lines.

Can you identify Soviet divisions that lost 100% of their manpower and equipment in an encirclement?
Playing silly games now as something will always escape depending on how tight the encirclement is but whole formations will be essentially destroyed which is the difference with just pushing back an enemy line while attritting mostly the combat strength.
Something you do not want to understand and makes all your thinking fundamentally wrong

per70
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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by per70 » 28 Sep 2023 20:12

Aida1 wrote:
28 Sep 2023 20:05
What was left was insignificant. Setting up the 6 th army again was a matter of prestige.
Ok, so a division can be annihilated even though some of its manpower survives. Fair enough.

But where do you put the limit on insignificant?
10 men?
100 men?
500 men?
1000 men?
1500 men?
More?

Peter89
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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Peter89 » 28 Sep 2023 21:13

By the time I come back to answer in detail, the thread is ruined with dozens of trolling comments. Why can't you guys do it in private?
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Aida1
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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Aida1 » 29 Sep 2023 07:41

per70 wrote:
28 Sep 2023 20:12
Aida1 wrote:
28 Sep 2023 20:05
What was left was insignificant. Setting up the 6 th army again was a matter of prestige.
Ok, so a division can be annihilated even though some of its manpower survives. Fair enough.

But where do you put the limit on insignificant?
10 men?
100 men?
500 men?
1000 men?
1500 men?
More?
You will need to study the structure of divisions, corps and armies and then you will understand the difference between destroying a unit and rendering it combat ineffective by attriting its combat strength.

KDF33
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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by KDF33 » 29 Sep 2023 18:30

Aida1 wrote:
28 Sep 2023 20:11
Playing silly games now as something will always escape depending on how tight the encirclement is but whole formations will be essentially destroyed which is the difference with just pushing back an enemy line while attritting mostly the combat strength.
Here is the full dataset detailing the initial and post-Blau I/II manpower situation of the divisions belonging to the Soviet South-Western Front on June 28, 1942:

Image

Can you tell me which of these formations were "attrited mostly (among their) combat strength"?

***

Sources:

-21st Army, June 30 and July 9
-28th Army, July 1 and July 20
-Front assets, June 30 and July 20
-38th Army, June 30 and July 20
-9th Army, June 30 and July 28/30

Princess Perfume
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Re: Hitler doesn't intervene in military strategies/tactics/retreats

Post by Princess Perfume » 29 Sep 2023 21:57

I'm sorry i started this thread.

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