Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Princess Perfume
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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#31

Post by Princess Perfume » 06 May 2023, 21:27

Once the dictator is gone,things collapse - e.g. Libya after Gaddafi. Without the military's rule, which has been both open and behind the scenes over the decades, Pakistan would collapse into chaos and fierce fighting between various political and religious factions.

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#32

Post by Huszar666 » 06 May 2023, 22:07

This really becomes the key question. Who replaces Hitler? Without knowing that, nothing else matters moving forward. Once the replacement is named, the next question is can they retain power like Hitler did?
As I see it, there are only two contenders: Hess and Görig. Frick could be an outside third. Himmler wasn't that stupid to assume, anyone would follow him, and he was strict about the rules. Meaning, since Hess was the "legitimate heir", he would follow him.
As who would the army to follow, Hess or Göring...


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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#33

Post by Princess Perfume » 06 May 2023, 22:45

There was a *reason* Hess was nicknamed "Fraulein Anna"....

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wm
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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#34

Post by wm » 06 May 2023, 23:21

Peter89 wrote:
06 May 2023, 21:10
Yes, contemporary US and Spain are oppressive regimes,

If the US (the country with the most comprehensive human and civil rights and, more importantly, with the most comprehensive means to defend them) is oppressive, then I have no more questions.
It's clearly a case of if everyone is oppressive, then nobody is.

The idea of self-determination for all is fanatical and absurd, supported by no one (except Israel and even in this case, hypocritically, only for the Jews). It will lead to immense suffering if someone tries to implement it.
The sanctity of borders is the only thing that provides relative security for us all.

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#35

Post by gebhk » 07 May 2023, 00:08

Also, there are more ukrainians than Poles
Errm, not really because nearly half the population of Ukraine are Russian speakers and therefore Russian - or so no doubt comrade Putin would say. Presumably as per Peter's definition the Ukrainians are oppressing the other half of the population :wink: .
On the contrary, they'd have their own idea about their own future.
And what it was we have no idea other than that the vast majority of Ukrainian conscripts in the Polish armed forces displayed no interest in Ukrainian independence. The question was never put to a reliable test so you have no basis to assume what that idea was.

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#36

Post by Peter89 » 07 May 2023, 07:08

wm wrote:
06 May 2023, 23:21
Peter89 wrote:
06 May 2023, 21:10
Yes, contemporary US and Spain are oppressive regimes,

If the US (the country with the most comprehensive human and civil rights and, more importantly, with the most comprehensive means to defend them) is oppressive, then I have no more questions.
It's clearly a case of if everyone is oppressive, then nobody is.

The idea of self-determination for all is fanatical and absurd, supported by no one (except Israel and even in this case, hypocritically, only for the Jews). It will lead to immense suffering if someone tries to implement it.
The sanctity of borders is the only thing that provides relative security for us all.
Why intentionally bend the subject in order not to reflect on the actual question?

We know the inventory of Schopenhauer and there is no need to recite it.

If you think that the USA protects minority rights the best in the world, we really don't need to continue on that path. Why did we even start? It leads nowhere anyway.

120 years ago, the East European region had 4 states ruling over them, now there are more than 20. Practically every nation wanted their own country. There is no such thing here as the sanctity of borders.

In absence of reliable and comprehensive opinion polls, everyone can say that the minorities were happy because except a few cases, they exhibited passive obedience. Hungarians were conscripted into the Romanian army and vica versa, yet were they happy to serve?

The fundamental flaw in your line of thought is the historical reality. While it is close to impossible to decisively determine what the Ukrainian minority wanted 100 years ago, we know for sure that neither Ukraine nor Lithuania entered into a Commonwealth with Poland. Not before WW2, not after 1989.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#37

Post by Peter89 » 07 May 2023, 07:18

gebhk wrote:
07 May 2023, 00:08
Also, there are more ukrainians than Poles
Errm, not really because nearly half the population of Ukraine are Russian speakers and therefore Russian - or so no doubt comrade Putin would say. Presumably as per Peter's definition the Ukrainians are oppressing the other half of the population :wink: .
And by your definition, if Russia occupies Ukraine and the Ukrainians don't rebel, then they are happy to be part of Russia. Contemporary Ukraine is actually oppressing its minorities, although it is not clear how Russian speakers and people with Russian identity overlap. This is probably the worst oppression in Europe, but the whole question is offtopic.
gebhk wrote:
07 May 2023, 00:08
On the contrary, they'd have their own idea about their own future.
And what it was we have no idea other than that the vast majority of Ukrainian conscripts in the Polish armed forces displayed no interest in Ukrainian independence. The question was never put to a reliable test so you have no basis to assume what that idea was.
They were by and large passive subjects, but as soon as they had the chance to get their own country, they didn't chose Polish yoke either.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#38

Post by gebhk » 07 May 2023, 08:09

And by your definition, if Russia occupies Ukraine and the Ukrainians don't rebel, then they are happy to be part of Russia.
Nope, by my definition if they don't have an opportunity to express their wishes, we don't know what they are. I have been very clear about that. I would point out that the (according to your definition) 'oppressed' Scots did not vote for independence when given the opportunity, so it is no foregone conclusion. You are also making the classic error of assuming that there was some sort of ethnic bloc in the pre-war areas of Poland that are now in Ukraine. This is far from the case with Poles (who made up 37% of the population of DOK VI area) and Ukrainians living side by side for generations and a great deal of intermarriage. There was even the development of cultural traditions to manage potential friction - for example if a Catholic man married an Orthodox woman, traditionally the boys were brought up as Catholics, the girls as Orthodox. The Polish population of these areas was only significantly reduced during WW2 firstly by ethnic cleansing carried out by Ukrainian Nazis and subsequently by expulsions carried out by the Soviets. Yes, this is a bizarre off-top but not one that I started or developed.
but as soon as they had the chance to get their own country, they didn't chose Polish yoke either.
When they had the chance, a 'Polish yoke' wasn't even an option so that proves nothing at all. Different times, different geographical area, different people, different political situation. And ironically, given your comments, when threatened by a return to the loving embrace of Russia, over a million and a half Ukrainians have chosen the 'Polish yoke' to date - only outnumbered by the ones who chose the 'Russian yoke', which rather highlights the complexities of the ethnic politics of the region even now, let alone then.
Last edited by gebhk on 07 May 2023, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.

gebhk
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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#39

Post by gebhk » 07 May 2023, 08:33

In absence of reliable and comprehensive opinion polls, everyone can say that the minorities were happy because except a few cases, they exhibited passive obedience.
And no one can say that they were unhappy either, let alone wanted an independent state.
Hungarians were conscripted into the Romanian army and vica versa, yet were they happy to serve?
All things being equal, who would be happy to serve regardless of which army it was? This is another red herring argument. Though oddly, things not being equal, in relation to the Polish army this was often the opposite for folk from the impoverished rural areas of Eastern Poland. Three square meals a day of very high quality diet for people living at near-starvation level in itself more than made up for the requirement to undergo training. When they returned back to their village on completion of their period of national service, in a decent suit of clothes, having 'seen the world' and with more money than anyone in the village had ever seen in one place, often having learned to read and write, perhaps a trade, it gave an immense leg-up in the marriage and employment markets. This gave rise to the bizarre paradox of many individuals who may have had little good to say about the Polish government in general, yet had enormous respect for and loyalty to its armed forces.

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#40

Post by Peter89 » 07 May 2023, 09:53

gebhk wrote:
07 May 2023, 08:09
And by your definition, if Russia occupies Ukraine and the Ukrainians don't rebel, then they are happy to be part of Russia.
Nope, by my definition if they don't have an opportunity to express their wishes, we don't know what they are. I have been very clear about that. I would point out that the (according to your definition) 'oppressed' Scots did not vote for independence when given the opportunity, so it is no foregone conclusion. You are also making the classic error of assuming that there was some sort of ethnic bloc in the pre-war areas of Poland that are now in Ukraine. This is far from the case with Poles (who made up 37% of the population of DOK VI area) and Ukrainians living side by side for generations and a great deal of intermarriage. There was even the development of cultural traditions to manage potential friction - for example if a Catholic man married an Orthodox woman, traditionally the boys were brought up as Catholics, the girls as Orthodox. The Polish population of these areas was only significantly reduced during WW2 firstly by ethnic cleansing carried out by Ukrainian Nazis and subsequently by expulsions carried out by the Soviets. Yes, this is a bizarre off-top but not one that I started or developed.
but as soon as they had the chance to get their own country, they didn't chose Polish yoke either.
When they had the chance, a 'Polish yoke' wasn't even an option so that proves nothing at all. Different times, different geographical area, different people, different political situation. And ironically, given your comments, when threatened by a return to the loving embrace of Russia, over a million and a half Ukrainians have chosen the 'Polish yoke' to date - only outnumbered by the ones who chose the 'Russian yoke', which rather highlights the complexities of the ethnic politics of the region even now, let alone then.
The people who fled Ukraine fled because of the war, not because they were longing for being a refugee in Poland or Russia...

But I think you know that very well, just as about everything I wrote before. It is pointless to continue if we can't debate in good faith and you can't get rid of the desire to turn this historical discussion into a contemporary political one.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#41

Post by gebhk » 07 May 2023, 10:36

you can't get rid of the desire to turn this historical discussion into a contemporary political one.
With respect, a touch of transference methinks. You are the one who brought up modern political events as an explanation of past events not I - I am trying to point out that this is ahistorical and unhelpful, not least because even the make up of modern Ukraine is radically different ethnically, politically and geographically to those areas of modern Ukraine that were in Poland before the war.

Where we agree is that this is a somewhat pointless offtop.

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#42

Post by gebhk » 07 May 2023, 11:28

Hi Princess Perfume
How does Germany find its way back to democracy as Hitler dies between taking Austria and the Sudeten crisis?
Even if the Nazis fall in this world, there's still the problem of Prussia and the junkers plus all those Prussians from Konigsberg to Aachen who still hanker after the Hohenzollens.
I think the issues of whether (a) WW2 happens and (b) Germany returns to the democratic 'fold' need to be considered separately. Ironically, it could be argued that had the NSDAP survived under a reasonably sane leader, the chances of WW2 are less than if a democratic or pseudo-democratic Germany emerged for exactly the reasons you quote. There was certainly a strong hankering within many parts of German society for a return to its WW1 Eastern empire as well as the lands it lost to Poland after WW1. Let's not forget that German belligerence towards Poland after WW1 was significantly dampened by Hitler when NSDAP came to power and this had not changed significantly by the time of his death in this WI. It is not unreasonable to assume that had the NSDAP lost its grip, these revanchist ambitions would again have bubbled up to the top making war with Poland a distinct possibility.
Last edited by gebhk on 07 May 2023, 11:39, edited 1 time in total.

Peter89
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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#43

Post by Peter89 » 07 May 2023, 11:36

gebhk wrote:
07 May 2023, 10:36
you can't get rid of the desire to turn this historical discussion into a contemporary political one.
With respect, a touch of transference methinks. You are the one who brought up modern political events as an explanation of past events not I - I am trying to point out that this is ahistorical and unhelpful, not least because even the make up of modern Ukraine is radically different ethnically, politically and geographically to those areas of modern Ukraine that were in Poland before the war.

Where we agree is that this is a somewhat pointless offtop.
No, it is wm and you who brought up modern politics in comments #15 and #16.

But nevermind, I'm happy to leave this conversation on a good note.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

gebhk
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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#44

Post by gebhk » 07 May 2023, 11:54

I won't speak for WM but I see no modern content in my post 16. It is precisely what I said earlier, an attempt to explain the ahistorical nature of post #12.

However I too am very happy to leave this conversation on a good note.

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Re: Hitler dies (N-causes) after the Anschluss but before Munich

#45

Post by Princess Perfume » 08 May 2023, 02:35

gebhk wrote:
07 May 2023, 11:28
Hi Princess Perfume
How does Germany find its way back to democracy as Hitler dies between taking Austria and the Sudeten crisis?
Even if the Nazis fall in this world, there's still the problem of Prussia and the junkers plus all those Prussians from Konigsberg to Aachen who still hanker after the Hohenzollens.
I think the issues of whether (a) WW2 happens and (b) Germany returns to the democratic 'fold' need to be considered separately. Ironically, it could be argued that had the NSDAP survived under a reasonably sane leader, the chances of WW2 are less than if a democratic or pseudo-democratic Germany emerged for exactly the reasons you quote. There was certainly a strong hankering within many parts of German society for a return to its WW1 Eastern empire as well as the lands it lost to Poland after WW1. Let's not forget that German belligerence towards Poland after WW1 was significantly dampened by Hitler when NSDAP came to power and this had not changed significantly by the time of his death in this WI. It is not unreasonable to assume that had the NSDAP lost its grip, these revanchist ambitions would again have bubbled up to the top making war with Poland a distinct possibility.
If the Prussians' price in the post-NSDAP world in my timeline is the 9th, then the question that will face Germany is "who?".

Wilhelm II's son is unacceptable. Louis Ferdinand is possible.... but he's married to Kira Romanova of the former Russian imperial family which will agitate the Soviet Union.

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