What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#16

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Jun 2023, 14:46

thaddeus_c wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 14:23
T. A. Gardner wrote:
02 Jun 2023, 23:01
thaddeus_c wrote:
02 Jun 2023, 15:40
not sure if it fits this discussion, but the KM could have focused on oil tankers, they had the Dithmarschen-class design historically.
The Dithmarschen were exactly what the KM needed for at sea replenishment. Sure, they weren't as efficient as a USN oiler or supply ship at transferring oil and supplies to a warship at sea, but they did it all on one hull, and for the Germans that was a big deal. The Dithmarschen were also fast enough to keep up with the fleet so they didn't require independent escorts. Again, with the limited number of hulls and ships the KM had that made sense for them.
my speculation was for commercial use during peacetime, that they might gain some advantage(s) on their huge imports of oil, stockpile a larger reserve than historically.

somewhat the same theme, the KM employed (and lost) dozens of large, modern commercial ships as Sperrbrecher but found much smaller 1,700t trawlers functioned about as well to clear mines.

thus building a fleet of fishing trawlers with features beyond what industry would have constructed would have been a wise effort.
Germany could get oil imported easily enough in peacetime. The two limitations on it then are how much can Germany afford to buy, and where do they store it. If the oil imported is used immediately or in the short term, it does no good come a war.

Also, what kind of 'oil' are they importing? Is it refined products or the raw resource? If the later, then refinery capacity becomes an issue. In wartime, starved of imports, extra refinery capacity does you no good.

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#17

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 03 Jun 2023, 18:46

T. A. Gardner wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 14:46
... Germany could get oil imported easily enough in peacetime. The two limitations on it then are how much can Germany afford to buy, and where do they store it. If the oil imported is used immediately or in the short term, it does no good come a war.

Also, what kind of 'oil' are they importing? Is it refined products or the raw resource? If the later, then refinery capacity becomes an issue. In wartime, starved of imports, extra refinery capacity does you no good.
Given the quantity of cheap coal in Germany is there any payoff from investment in conversion to liquid fuels. The synthetic fuels for bunker fuels, diesels, or gasoline engines?


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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#18

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 03 Jun 2023, 18:54

Kingfish wrote:
02 Jun 2023, 23:11
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
02 Jun 2023, 14:47
Shoveling enough money at some commercial companies can get some innovation.
True, but establishing a national strategy that marries military "must have" with commercial "nice to have" reminds me of that old adage: "the man who chases two hares catches neither"
Yet in the end thats what most ended up doing. The US for example had nothing to draw on commercially for ordnance R & D, while the commercial aircraft industry could take on military aircraft development with the Army & Navy air services involved only in writing specifications and testing. Even at that several aircraft manufactures took some combat designs all the way from specs through testing on their own. For other items it fell between these extremes.

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#19

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Jun 2023, 20:08

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 18:46
T. A. Gardner wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 14:46
... Germany could get oil imported easily enough in peacetime. The two limitations on it then are how much can Germany afford to buy, and where do they store it. If the oil imported is used immediately or in the short term, it does no good come a war.

Also, what kind of 'oil' are they importing? Is it refined products or the raw resource? If the later, then refinery capacity becomes an issue. In wartime, starved of imports, extra refinery capacity does you no good.
Given the quantity of cheap coal in Germany is there any payoff from investment in conversion to liquid fuels. The synthetic fuels for bunker fuels, diesels, or gasoline engines?
Synthetic fuel, like the Fischer-Tropsch process takes large quantities of freshwater and electricity to manufacture. Germany eventually managed to build 21 plants making synthetic fuels, but in peacetime the process was expensive compared to importing either crude oil for refining, or refined oil products from elsewhere.

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#20

Post by ljadw » 03 Jun 2023, 21:55

Peter89 wrote:
27 May 2023, 19:08
T. A. Gardner wrote:
27 May 2023, 18:53
Peter89 wrote:
27 May 2023, 08:55
T. A. Gardner wrote:
27 May 2023, 01:53
As I've posted times before here, and elsewhere, what the Germans needed most was a vastly improved ability to do civil engineering. Rather than neglecting this and relegating it to mostly, almost entirely, manual labor, the Germans adopt to some degree--whatever is possible-- mechanizing their construction engineering and adopting other related engineering in this field.

For example:

They go heavily into prefabrication of system components. This means, like the British and US, the Germans have a series of prefabricated buildings kitted for shipment and use in erecting bases as they advance. The buildings, in their case, could be mostly wood products making them "non-strategic" in materials use.
For railroad repair, they have prefabricated lengths of track with the ties installed and use a flatcar to bring them forward. A crane on another car sets them in place. They have dump cars (bottom or side) that can deliver ballast for the railbed quickly.

Road construction units have at least a proportion of mechanized equipment to include one or more bulldozers, road graders, road rollers, and dump trucks. They don't have to be fully motorized or mechanized, but rather have some equipment to do the heavy lifting alongside manual laborers.

They also have portable sawmills, rock crushing plants that make sand and gravel, etc. You bring these in by rail, set them up, and they go to work making mass materials for construction. They had some historically, here they add more.

For use in Russia, they kit the necessary parts to construct standardized riverine craft that are then assembled using locally manufactured wood (eg., a sawmill making the lumber) to which the parts are added. This means they can make more use of the Russian river system to move troops and supplies.

This really becomes critical in Russia. Imagine the Germans did the above. They could be improving unpaved roads as they go, upgrading them to say, oiled (using used motor oil, etc.) and graveled with a compacted, graded surface with good drainage. Such a road would stand up to the rainy season and mud reasonably well. The few paved roads are maintained better and improved in terms of drainage, etc. Truck losses due to wear and tear are decreased meaning less need for replacements.

Where railroads exist, the availability of prefabricated rail sections and dump cars delivering gravel ballast make it possible to quickly expand a single rail system with sidings or a second track. Prefabricated buildings, tanks, and such allow building coaling and watering stations along with offices for communications rapidly.

Prefabricated buildings mean less waste of supplies sitting outside as you can build warehouses quickly. Troops have more shelter available in winter. Maintenance services have shelter to do their work rather than being outdoors.

Better roads and railroads equate into less wastage of vehicles and materials. This in turn means what supplies are already available are made more readily accessible to the front in a timely manner.

Fewer construction troops can do the same amount of work with the added mechanization meaning more men available for combat units without drafting more men.

Thus, by having improved civil engineering available, the Germans get improved logistical results with the same level of materials and supplies they had historically. There is less wastage across the whole system.
This is mostly important in the Soviet campaign though. Against the British, naval aviation and expeditionary forces (the lack of them) were much more important factors.
Absolutely true. However, experience from WW 1 with the Belgians and French blowing up bridges and rail lines would make some of this applicable. The pre-fabricated building thing would have been useful even in peacetime for a number of uses as would kits for quickly making amphibious landing craft (Seelöwe?). Yes, Germany didn't originally have plans particularly to invade England, but it never hurts to plan things like that out just in case.
Again, having the kits, prefabricated buildings, and more mechanized rail repair systems wouldn't have hurt the Germans at all. OT could have done the same with road building and other construction they did well before the war. Given some of the grandiose schemes for buildings and infrastructure the Nazis had, OT could have used that pre-war to push for their increased budget to get construction machinery to make those dreams of the leaders reality sooner...
I agree. The Luftwaffe airfield construction, for example, was completely inadequate. There should have been more mechanization in that field. During the Iraqi campaign, a local businessman enlarged an airfield in the matter of days, thanks to his British equipment. It usually took weeks for the Germans, if they were really into the effort.

Amphibious landing crafts is a very good idea, however. The inland waterway traffic in Germany and the connected countries made that totally relevant.

But, in any case, I firmly believe that the biggest issue was the lack of interservice cooperation. Namely, Göring. The Germans possessed everything for a proper naval aviation arm (which required Kriegsmarine cooperation) and a dedicated air transport fleet (which required Heer cooperation).
To blame Goering is much exaggerated : a proper naval aviation arm would have only very small results and the Germans had an air transport fleet which operated in Stalingrad and in NA,but the results were not very impressive .
It was not much different on allied side .
More transport aircraft do not mean more supplies.
A stronger naval aviation does not mean the discovery of more convoys and the discovery of more convoys does not mean the destruction of more convoys .

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#21

Post by thaddeus_c » 04 Jun 2023, 15:19

T. A. Gardner wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 14:46
thaddeus_c wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 14:23
T. A. Gardner wrote:
02 Jun 2023, 23:01
thaddeus_c wrote:
02 Jun 2023, 15:40
not sure if it fits this discussion, but the KM could have focused on oil tankers, they had the Dithmarschen-class design historically.
The Dithmarschen were exactly what the KM needed for at sea replenishment. Sure, they weren't as efficient as a USN oiler or supply ship at transferring oil and supplies to a warship at sea, but they did it all on one hull, and for the Germans that was a big deal. The Dithmarschen were also fast enough to keep up with the fleet so they didn't require independent escorts. Again, with the limited number of hulls and ships the KM had that made sense for them.
my speculation was for commercial use during peacetime, that they might gain some advantage(s) on their huge imports of oil, stockpile a larger reserve than historically.
Germany could get oil imported easily enough in peacetime. The two limitations on it then are how much can Germany afford to buy, and where do they store it. If the oil imported is used immediately or in the short term, it does no good come a war.

Also, what kind of 'oil' are they importing? Is it refined products or the raw resource? If the later, then refinery capacity becomes an issue. In wartime, starved of imports, extra refinery capacity does you no good.
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 18:46
Given the quantity of cheap coal in Germany is there any payoff from investment in conversion to liquid fuels. The synthetic fuels for bunker fuels, diesels, or gasoline engines?
T. A. Gardner wrote:
03 Jun 2023, 20:08
Synthetic fuel, like the Fischer-Tropsch process takes large quantities of freshwater and electricity to manufacture. Germany eventually managed to build 21 plants making synthetic fuels, but in peacetime the process was expensive compared to importing either crude oil for refining, or refined oil products from elsewhere.
the German fuel situation is a whole subject in and of itself, my point was they might have gotten themselves in the oil tanker business to barter transport for oil (as they were chronically short of foreign exchange.) there was a scheme to construct oil tankers for Mexico at one point, with the German side paid in oil.

my speculation was not to stockpile 100's of millions of barrels, given the synthetic plants they were constructing, there should have been enough tank farms to store natural crude oil if it was obtained? they also could have used salt mines for storage.

the synthetic program (just IMO) seems unavoidable but efforts in various other directions such as a larger reserve, use of steam power and producer gas attachments might have reduced the scale of construction.

of course, the primary purpose of the Dithmarschen ships would be to support naval operations, I've speculated a wartime conversion to seaplane tenders and/or raiders.

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#22

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 04 Jun 2023, 18:13

thaddeus_c wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 15:19
...

of course, the primary purpose of the Dithmarschen ships would be to support naval operations, I've speculated a wartime conversion to seaplane tenders and/or raiders.
I wonder how long they could have got away with flagging them under a neutral, like Argentinia?

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#23

Post by thaddeus_c » 05 Jun 2023, 15:09

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 18:13
thaddeus_c wrote:
04 Jun 2023, 15:19
...

of course, the primary purpose of the Dithmarschen ships would be to support naval operations, I've speculated a wartime conversion to seaplane tenders and/or raiders.
I wonder how long they could have got away with flagging them under a neutral, like Argentinia?
IDK how much shielding that provides? (maybe a country that GB really does not want to enter the war like Spain could operate them?) they certainly could not be camouflaged like the historical raiders. I've always thought they would be scattered to far flug locations to support u-boat operations. (Japan certainly could have made use of a few)

the Dithmarschen-class could tow disabled ships, I've wondered if they could have towed (or even carried somehow) u-boats into the GIUK gap? eclipsing or augmenting the French Atlantic u-boat bases.

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#24

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 05 Jun 2023, 15:29

Adding a barrier with registration and flagging through non German companies may not last long either. A important part of the British Nav Cert system was their intelligence operations penetrating exactly that to identify contraband cargos and the businesses organizing them. I don't know the reality of it, but the Brits were claiming Standard Oil owned oil tankers were providing fuel for submarines in Isolated Spanish harbors.

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#25

Post by ljadw » 05 Jun 2023, 16:04

There are no proofs for the politically inspired claims that Standard Oil was supplying oil to German U Boats in Spanish harbors .
Standard Oil ,and its Seven Sisters,supplied Spain with oil, what Spain did with this oil,was not the business of the oil companies .

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#26

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 05 Jun 2023, 23:37

ljadw wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 16:04
...
what Spain did with this oil,was not the business of the oil companies .
The Brits saw it as their business, which was one of the functions of the Nav Cert system & their economic intelligence gathering. As part of the blockade they obtained agreements from the neutral nation as to how the imports were to be used and redistributed. William Davis, owner of Davis Oil Company was under investigation in connection with oil sales to Germany. He died before trial was initiated so the court proceedings against him were dropped and whatever record the Justice Dept had accumulated was disposed of. A partial record was preserved in FBI archives. The oil company continued in existence & in 1942. Werner Clemm a board member was arrested that year and tried as a conspirator in violating statues for trading with a hostile nation. Was convicted and sentenced for five years.

Theres a variety of public record showing The corporate structure and directors of Davis Oil, before and after Davis death. Harry Collier also a California Standard Oil official, Hamilton Pell a partner in Standard Gas and Electric. Davis Oil was a relatively minor player in US business support for the nazi regime and illegal exports. Originating in 1934 Davis Oil had both the German government and businesses as it key customer into 1941. Standard Oil, & Texaco were likely larger players and offenders in this game.

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#27

Post by ljadw » 06 Jun 2023, 14:46

Deutches U-Boot-Museum gives in
''U-Boats in Spain '' a list of some 25 cases (almost all before PH ) where U-Boats were supplied with Diesel and water in Spanish ports, by German merchant vessels ,but in not one of these cases were US tankers supplying U Boats in Spanish ports,besides: this would be almost impossible .
US tankers heading to Spain before PH were severely controlled by the RN and by British intelligence when they arrived in Spain .
About Davis : he was not a spy,but an agent of influence ,who helped ,unsuccessfully, the Germans to influence the 1940 elections. But there is no proof that he violated US law by selling oil to Germany,as he died before PH .

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#28

Post by thaddeus_c » 08 Jun 2023, 02:19

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
05 Jun 2023, 15:29
Adding a barrier with registration and flagging through non German companies may not last long either. A important part of the British Nav Cert system was their intelligence operations penetrating exactly that to identify contraband cargos and the businesses organizing them.
that was my understanding, and of course Germany dealt away their relations with the USSR and KMT China, which might have served to obscure some of their operations (even from a superior intelligence gathering operation.)

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#29

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 08 Jun 2023, 02:48

It did take the Brits the better part of two years to make the blockade completely effective. A big part of that was the attack on the USSR, which closed the largest hole in the blockade system. Another important part was the Warhawks in the US slowly closing off Axis bound exports through 1940-41. After that it was a relative trickle via Spain, France, & Turky, or the occasional blockade runner to S America or Asia

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Re: What if the Reichswehr focused on lostics and adjacent tech?

#30

Post by Peter89 » 08 Jun 2023, 06:45

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
08 Jun 2023, 02:48
It did take the Brits the better part of two years to make the blockade completely effective. A big part of that was the attack on the USSR, which closed the largest hole in the blockade system. Another important part was the Warhawks in the US slowly closing off Axis bound exports through 1940-41. After that it was a relative trickle via Spain, France, & Turky, or the occasional blockade runner to S America or Asia
Plus there was the growing number and quality of naval air patrols. Not to mention that the web around the Axis was much more tight because of the British campaigns in the periphery. The stranded German merchant fleet lacked fuel and their positions were known to the British, thus many of them couldn't even get home from the Canaries and the Azores. The blockade runners from Germany ran into the trouble that the Allies gradually established aerial supremacy over the Bay of Biscay and the Northern passages. Turkey was irrelevant after the Allies took Iraq, the Levant and Iran.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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