Japan strikes America

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OpanaPointer
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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by OpanaPointer » 13 Oct 2023 15:15

I recall a submarine took some German tech to Japan, including V-1s.
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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 13 Oct 2023 16:29

Yep. Just saw that a few days ago. One of the big I class boats. Stuffed with models, engineering specs and drawings, some alloys, Japanese diplomats returning home, and some Germans assigned to duty in Japan. It was the last successful Japanese transport mission between Europe and Japan. A later mission was outed by decryption of the radio message with intenerary & route. The sub was sunk a few days after departure from France. The japanese scheduled no more transport missions after that. The Germans kept trying, the last departing in April 1945. When it reported into the US in May for interment the inventory included some 1,300 lbs of Uranium Oxide. (Rhodes referes to this in 'The Making or the Atomic Bomb'). The log book also recorded the suicide of two japanese navy officers aboard after the interment orders arrived.

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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by EwenS » 13 Oct 2023 16:30

OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Oct 2023 15:11
the first missile fired from a US sub was a V-1.
Strictly speaking it wasn’t a V-1.

The US reverse engineered the V-1 from July 1944 for use against Japan as the JB-2 (USAAF) or KGW-1 Loon (USN) with a few, mostly minor changes. A major change however was to the guidance system which had radio transceivers introduced to allow mid-course guidance changes. Postwar it went through various changes of designation.

USS Cusk was the launching sub in 1947 with Carbonero providing mid-course guidance. The latter was also fitted out to launch Loon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic-Ford_JB-2
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0834807.jpg
http://navsource.org/archives/08/377/0834834.jpg

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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by T. A. Gardner » 13 Oct 2023 17:36

lordroel wrote:
13 Oct 2023 15:12
OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Oct 2023 15:11
the first missile fired from a US sub was a V-1.
Did Japan get some V-1 tech from the Germans, they have the sub to launch a rocket.
Yes, Japan did get V-1 technology from the Germans but were slow to develop it historically. When the war ended they were close to starting production of their version of this missile.

As for the MXY 7 Ohka, the model 43 using a Ne 20 turbojet engine (Jumo 004 copy) was intended for just this purpose--launching from a submarine by catapult. It had an estimated range of 150 nm. The rocket propelled model 11 (~ 20 nm) and 22 with a motorjet engine (~50 nm) were actually used but not fired from a submarine. The Model 22 might have been an acceptable alternative to a V-1 for this scenario so long as it didn't run into AA fire or enemy interceptors as its top speed was only about 275 mph.

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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by lordroel » 13 Oct 2023 17:40

T. A. Gardner wrote:
13 Oct 2023 17:36
The Model 22 might have been an acceptable alternative to a V-1 for this scenario so long as it didn't run into AA fire or enemy interceptors as its top speed was only about 275 mph.
Was there strong AA defense located at the West America coast.

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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by OpanaPointer » 13 Oct 2023 21:38

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and craps through feathers, it's a duck.
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by T. A. Gardner » 13 Oct 2023 21:57

lordroel wrote:
13 Oct 2023 17:40
T. A. Gardner wrote:
13 Oct 2023 17:36
The Model 22 might have been an acceptable alternative to a V-1 for this scenario so long as it didn't run into AA fire or enemy interceptors as its top speed was only about 275 mph.
Was there strong AA defense located at the West America coast.
Not particularly. There were some defenses, of course, both on land and at sea, but nothing so dense or effective that it could have been counted on to stop a surprise V-1 attack by a few missiles.

The one time a Japanese submarine did shell the West Coast was the I-25 in June 1942 when this sub surfaced, and then proceeded to shell the vicinity of Fort Stevens, a coast defense fort on the mouth of the Columbia River. The fort was equipped with M1895 10" rifles and some 12" M1912 mortars. Neither weapon had the range to return fire on the sub's 5.5" deck gun. Yes, the fort did spot the sub's gunfire and plotted its position but determined the guns couldn't fire that far.

Anyway, the sub managed to damage the fort's baseball field, while the US Army called in the attack along with some USAAF planes on a training mission and the sub was ineffectively bombed by an A-29 Hudson in return.

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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by LineDoggie » 13 Oct 2023 23:45

T. A. Gardner wrote:
13 Oct 2023 00:22


The V-1 launched on a city has a CEP of about 6 miles at 100 miles range. The range error is smaller. That means launched against a larger US city it will hit something in that city.
Something, maybe a park so nothing but squirrels. RAF had a hard time getting bombs within 5 miles of a target in Germany and until Hamburg killed mostly cows.

They would be better off attacking the Panama Canal locks, or the Navy Yards/POE at Mare island than Los Angeles
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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by OpanaPointer » 13 Oct 2023 23:46

IIRC the "five miles" thing was from the first two years of the war.
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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by lordroel » 14 Oct 2023 11:06

T. A. Gardner wrote:
13 Oct 2023 21:57
lordroel wrote:
13 Oct 2023 17:40
T. A. Gardner wrote:
13 Oct 2023 17:36
The Model 22 might have been an acceptable alternative to a V-1 for this scenario so long as it didn't run into AA fire or enemy interceptors as its top speed was only about 275 mph.
Was there strong AA defense located at the West America coast.
Not particularly. There were some defenses, of course, both on land and at sea, but nothing so dense or effective that it could have been counted on to stop a surprise V-1 attack by a few missiles.
So if a I-400 launches, what, 1 ore 2 Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka Model 43A with folding wings, would they hit targets with major impact, do we know if there where major fuel depots oreammunition warehouses located near, lets say San Francisco ore Los Angeles.

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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 14 Oct 2023 13:36

lordroel wrote:
14 Oct 2023 11:06
, do we know if there where major fuel depots oreammunition warehouses located near, lets say San Francisco ore Los Angeles.
Theres the oil refinery near LA, I referred to in my earlier post. Large Navy yards near San Diego, Long Beach, San Francisco, Bremmerton.

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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by T. A. Gardner » 14 Oct 2023 16:31

lordroel wrote:
14 Oct 2023 11:06
T. A. Gardner wrote:
13 Oct 2023 21:57
lordroel wrote:
13 Oct 2023 17:40
T. A. Gardner wrote:
13 Oct 2023 17:36
The Model 22 might have been an acceptable alternative to a V-1 for this scenario so long as it didn't run into AA fire or enemy interceptors as its top speed was only about 275 mph.
Was there strong AA defense located at the West America coast.
Not particularly. There were some defenses, of course, both on land and at sea, but nothing so dense or effective that it could have been counted on to stop a surprise V-1 attack by a few missiles.
So if a I-400 launches, what, 1 ore 2 Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka Model 43A with folding wings, would they hit targets with major impact, do we know if there where major fuel depots oreammunition warehouses located near, lets say San Francisco ore Los Angeles.
At that time, Kaiser shipyard in Richmond (across the Bay from San Francisco) was the largest in the US building merchant ships. It stretched for miles in every direction. Kaiser had others in LA and Vancouver WA. The LA basin had huge oil fields and multiple refineries, along with being one of the larger aircraft manufacturing cities in the US.

Image

There were two US Navy shipyards along with several naval air stations in the San Francisco area. The largest US Navy munitions dump was in the Bay area.

If all you want to do is hit something and do some damage, the Japanese couldn't have hardly missed by firing on a major city on the West coast. If they got lucky, the missile would come down on some factory or military installation. A piloted missile would have a greater chance of both.

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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by LineDoggie » 15 Oct 2023 22:20

thaddeus_c wrote:
13 Oct 2023 14:44


that Bachem Natter? do not see an estimated range, only 3 - 4 minutes "duration"

Natter killed its first pilot on its only manned launching, broke his neck.

Gefr. Lothar Sieber 1 march 1945 (posthumous Oberleutnant).
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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by OpanaPointer » 15 Oct 2023 23:01

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
14 Oct 2023 13:36
lordroel wrote:
14 Oct 2023 11:06
, do we know if there where major fuel depots oreammunition warehouses located near, lets say San Francisco ore Los Angeles.
Theres the oil refinery near LA, I referred to in my earlier post. Large Navy yards near San Diego, Long Beach, San Francisco, Bremmerton.
Oil wells right up to the beach in places.

And a BIG Ferris Wheel. :lol:
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Re: Japan strikes America

Post by LineDoggie » 16 Oct 2023 22:36

OpanaPointer wrote:
13 Oct 2023 23:46
IIRC the "five miles" thing was from the first two years of the war.
Indeed until the RAF had radar and pathfinders to properly mark/bomb targets and Master Bombers to direct the strikes. None of which would the Japanese have access to assist in hitting anything worthwhile.

So they launch 18 V-1's for a total of 16 tons and draw down on them Every ASW group withing sailing or flying distance.
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
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