Turkey joins the Axis in 1940-41

[Alternative Scenario]

Turkey - given assurances of German support and the re-establishment of its former empire declares war on Britain in 1940!

German offers new aircraft (ME109s and JU88s) and a small number of tanks! It also provides some Luftwaffe and Army Units

What difference would the Turks have made:

a) in the fighting in the Middle East against the British and Empire forces
b) in a future attack on the Soviet Union

[Zepas]

Nazi aircraft and tanks would be good at skilled hands.Just check out what happened with Russians weapons Soviets supplied to Egyptians, Syrians and to others "enemies of world imperialism".They just droped them without starting to use (at 6 day war at 1967) I think with Turk it would happen the same as at WW1.The Soviets would push them couple tens miles away from the border and later events would depend on situation at Eastern front.I don`t think Stalin would go into Turk depth, but Black Sea coast cities would be occupied, and of course ,he would put his paw on Istanbul and Bosporus.It`s apart that that he would provide "friendly" background to British allies at Syria .And as a second consequense Hitler probably would call back Rommel and evacuate Afrika korps without meaningless fighting.At resume my opinion the Turks would be such useful for Nazis as they would waste Russians time to kick their underbacks.

[Sam H.]

Turkey would help drive the British out of the Balkans, open an land route to the Middle East and Egypt and offer the possibility of a second front (Caucasas) for the invasion of Russia. In short, it could have been devestating.

[Gott]

Nazi aircraft and tanks would be good at skilled hands.Just check out what happened with Russians weapons Soviets supplied to Egyptians, Syrians and to others "enemies of world imperialism".They just droped them without starting to use (at 6 day war at 1967) I think with Turk it would happen the same as at WW1.The Soviets would push them couple tens miles away from the border and later events would depend on situation at Eastern front.I don`t think Stalin would go into Turk depth, but Black Sea coast cities would be occupied, and of course ,he would put his paw on Istanbul and Bosporus.It`s apart that that he would provide "friendly" background to British allies at Syria .And as a second consequense Hitler probably would call back Rommel and evacuate Afrika korps without meaningless fighting.At resume my opinion the Turks would be such useful for Nazis as they would waste Russians time to kick their underbacks.

Are you aware that the Turks was successful at Gallipolli in the FWW? If I recalled correctly, the Turks also did cast plently of damage to the Russian Black Sea Fleet in the FWW. Though their military is small, The Turkish military in the FWW and afterwards were rather well-trained.

On a geographical view, Stalin would have cared more about defending cities in western Russia which were being invaded by the Wehrmacht, what the Turks can endangered were the Trancaucasian republics. I suppose in case the Turks invaded the USSR, the Soviets would put up a mild defence, only to collapse later on. As you should know, oil from that area was Hitler's dream.

[Major Linden]

Turkey would help drive the British out of the Balkans, open an land route to the Middle East and Egypt and offer the possibility of a second front (Caucasas) for the invasion of Russia. In short, it could have been devestating.

Indeed. A nation straddling two continents in such a key strategic position...

All in all, speculation on Turkish involvement gives rise to some of the more interesting possibilities in terms of "What If" scenarios.

Regards,

The Major

[Feldmarshall Erwin Rommel]

The Turkish army combined with some German mountain divisions and air support striking into the Caucasus would be a nice contribution for Barbarossa and the drive South.

Also being a threat for Britain in the Middle East would make it harder for Britain to defend both North-Africa and the Middle East. Turkey could also beat the Free French in Syria.

[Zepas]

Gott writes:[Are you aware that the Turks was successful at Gallipolli in the FWW?quote]Yea-aah, You should remind the storm of Vienna at 1683 Of course ,just Turkish military genius could throw Britishers to the Aegean Sea from the precipitous coast Also the great victory against the Greek invasion right after WW1 was finished...OK.Technically such alliance was possible between Nazis and Turks, but don`t forget that Turkishes were "undermenschen" for "Arian descent" Nazis.Second , NKVD (KGB abreviation at time of WW2) was the best intelligence service probably until 60-ies., enough to say that Russians knew about Nazis planned Moscow bombing couple days before aircraft raids, meanwhile bombers` pilots just an hour before.Thus this let me do the conclusion that Stalin would change his peace of mind allegedly Hitler was involved in the war against the British lion and even didn`t think abaout an assault against USSR.Second, the oil fields lied not 2 miles from Turkish border, but at Baku on Caspian coast and at Dagestan , behind the main Caucasus ridge.Now neverthless let`s imagine Turks and Nazis did jug up each with another and unecspectedly stroke Russians at the same time.First of all Soviet Black Sea Navy diferently from the Army was not bleeded out by NKVD repressions and the navy commander started to prepare for the Nazi aircraft assault at without Stalin`s order at the eve of the day "Barbarossa" started, the Army - 2 hours before.As a resault the Luvtwaffe air raid on Sevastopol navy base was succesfully beaten off and Soviet navy activity was limited just by overhelming German Army success.Therefore we have a ground to think that Turkish navy activity at Black Sea would be neutralized too.Further more , even at worst situation at the front Soviets kept 40,000 troops at Caucasus what was pretty enough to tied up Turkish Army activity at montanous Georgia , Armenia areas.By the way tanks are useless at tight areas like mountain valeys, as a Afghanistan and CHechenians wars showed, so Nazis could just send some aircraft units to support Turks.So I insist that if Turkey would join to the war at the same time with "Barbarossa" , the WW1 schedule would be repeated:after 10-20 miles move they would be stopped and involved at position war, in similar way like a Finlamd.If they (Turks) would join to the war at 1942 probably they would slowly but with a speed up would roll back.

[Kaan Caglar]

Gott writes:[Are you aware that the Turks was successful at Gallipolli in the FWW?quote]Yea-aah, You should remind the storm of Vienna at 1683 Of course ,just Turkish military genius could throw Britishers to the Aegean Sea from the precipitous coast Also the great victory against the Greek invasion right after WW1 was finished...

What we need here is an other turk-hater...
Anyway then I should remind you the siege of Constantinople(istanbul) and the conquest of Balkans,Mezopotamia,egypt,Algeria,morrocco and many more....
So as this has been discussed before,i think(as i live in turkey and know our background nad our army in those times,i will not talk on theories but with facts):
Turkish army was supported by british weapons so we had a little pact with british... Churchill insisted inönü(president of Turkish Republic) to rage war against Germans but he didn't accept.
In a poll in Turkey,Turkish people voted about "which side should we choose?" and %65 voted for germans,a little for the allies,and the others wanted to stay neutral,so it was going to happen if there were a proper democracy in Turkey those times
Turkey is like a bridge connecting middle-east to balkans,it is a great route to surround Monty in Egypt,and Turkish army had the strenght to fight free-french in Syria...
And battle in soviet front would be really hard because the mountians surrounding turkey is a great defence position for both sides... May be non-side would try to cross the front...
So these are my opinions
Regards
Kaan

[Mehmet Fatih]

turks were not untermenschen for german people. during ww2 turks didn't have to get aryan report to enter or live in germany.they had almost every right that a german had.
(all these were heard from a person who lived in germany from 1940 to 1952)[/quote]

[Zepas]

The problem is not turks are untermenschen or not for Nazis, the problem is if they could influent the WWII in a remarcable way.As mostly agreed,turks hardly could make rickety Russians from the Caucasus.Could they ensure the supply at Wehrmacht 1942 offensive and enable him to hang on the North Caucasus?They need to know then a condition and a net of railroads(probably no railroads, just mountain goat trails overthere) at east Turkey,Turkish navy ability to fight against Russian one, if the Nazi aircraft could be located and act from Turkish side.Any historians could comment this?

[Alexander39]

The problem is not turks are untermenschen or not for Nazis, the problem is if they could influent the WWII in a remarcable way.As mostly agreed,turks hardly could make rickety Russians from the Caucasus.Could they ensure the supply at Wehrmacht 1942 offensive and enable him to hang on the North Caucasus?They need to know then a condition and a net of railroads(probably no railroads, just mountain goat trails overthere) at east Turkey,Turkish navy ability to fight against Russian one, if the Nazi aircraft could be located and act from Turkish side.Any historians could comment this?

They could, and in a devastating way, especially if they had entert the war on the Axis side in 40-41'

Some numbers. standing army in oct 40' was 220 000 men + 190 000 resevist on three week notice.
2 marine brigades of 3800 men each. + 22000 men in fortresses in and around the Bosporous.

Airforce had around 300 airplanes but they were all obsolecent eksept for some Boston bombers due to be deliverd from the states (46).

Lots of average/good light & mountain artillery But great difficiency in heavy guns eksept for the Bosporous.

Estimate maximum call up size for the army was estimatet at 1 100 000 approx, before it scraped the barrel.

around 130+ obsolesent light tanks and 300 + armoured cars many of WW1 wintage. (Got deliverd Pz IV later in the war together whit Stuart tanks from the US 8) )

Had a formidable position to help the Axis whitout doing much, just being able to place airfields on Turkeys ground would have a tremendeous effect, not to mention that the British suddenly would have to prepare for a two front war at a time were thay had a hard time fighting one!
The Soviet/Turkish border is imminently defendable for both sides, but 40 000 men would not have been enough for the Soviets to secure Batumi, which would soon be the only harbor left in the black sea that they controlled, all Hitler had to do were giving order that one of his mountain divisions and a couple of luftwaffen Squadrons to go in and support the Turks. and may gather one or two infantry division whit some motorized support to go in and take over Syria, and in so doing making the british situation in the Middle east ekstremly precarious

[Kurt_Steiner]

If Turkey attacks in 1941 Russia, could the British attack her from Syria?

[Sam H.]

If Turkey attacks in 1941 Russia, could the British attack her from Syria?

I doubt the British army had much to spare vis a vis Turkey. They certainly would not venture far once Germany army divisions arrived.

[Reviewer]

If Turkey attacks in 1941 Russia, could the British attack her from Syria?

They would already have been defeated in the whole middle-east and the north african coast with the Afrika korp driving toward Kartoum.
In 1941, the blitzkrieg would have been able to seize the Caucasian oil fields easely.

[Baltasar]

If Turkey attacks in 1941 Russia, could the British attack her from Syria?

They would already have been defeated in the whole middle-east and the north african coast with the Afrika korp driving toward Kartoum.
In 1941, the blitzkrieg would have been able to seize the Caucasian oil fields easely.

The Wehrmacht needed all it's Panzer divisions on the eastfront in '41, simply to encircle the Russian armies. Even with all the tanks the Germans fielded, the Russians still managed to retreat some armies. Taking a division or two away from that front would certainly make things more difficult for the Germans.

Moreover, if Turkey openly joins the Axis, would Stalin still want to scrap all those defensive installations between Moskov and Berlin? Wouldn't the Red Army at the very least make some plans just in case Turkey to attack? Even if Turkey only joins on the same day when Barbarossa ist launched, wouldn't the Russians notice something is going on on their border?