What kind of a nation would Germany be now if Hitler won?

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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van Grimberg
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Post by van Grimberg » 12 Jul 2002 23:53

HETMAN,

all the polish people that I personally know are false and insidious. With you're behaviour and your venomous thoughts you're just anothe prove for that. You're just insulting German people - without a simple reason.

Confronting you with the fact that even Polish people killed the jews (you didn't read the "Spiege"l article, right?) you just say
A tragic incident, but it's not like we gassed six million Jews or anything, now is it?
What a silly excuse- what a silly statement.

Without narrow minded creatures like you, the world would be free from prejudice and hate.

Kapitan Drago
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Post by Kapitan Drago » 13 Jul 2002 00:59

Benoit Douville,this is what i mean -we miss 55 years traing to build one utopia( it was just good idea,they destroyed it from the very begining.).In 1939 Bulgarian capitalism was ok,i mean the country iconomy was on +.

Actualy ,if the Germans was won the war ,how they gona keep the victory ? Just no way.
My web page ,with info about Bulgarian military history:
http://hometown.aol.com/bogdanovaslava/index.html

Xenon
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Post by Xenon » 13 Jul 2002 01:22

Babelfish rulz ;)

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 13 Jul 2002 04:34

van Grimberg wrote:HETMAN,

all the polish people that I personally know are false and insidious. With you're behaviour and your venomous thoughts you're just anothe prove for that. You're just insulting German people - without a simple reason.
What do you mean "without a simple reason"? Has it escaped you that Germans killed 6,000,000 Poles during the war (half of them Jews). And that was only the beginning. Their ultimate plan was to kill, deport or assimilate the remaining Poles to kill off Polish culture completely. Now, many Germans still think Hitler was great, and his plans were fantastic. I see that as a personal insult. That's my reason. I think that's a great reason. I couldn't dream up a better reason even if I wanted to.

Confronting you with the fact that even Polish people killed the jews (you didn't read the "Spiege"l article, right?) you just say
A tragic incident, but it's not like we gassed six million Jews or anything, now is it?
What a silly excuse- what a silly statement.
It was a very intelligent statement actually. The last people on earth who should be telling us that we're anti-semitic and that we killed Jews are the GERMANS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was the Germans who were resposnible for the Holocaust?

More importantly, I know more about Polish/Jewish relations and history than any German magazine, any German journalist, and certainly more so than any German on this forum.

I am aware of the Jedwabne case, and several cases like it. So what's your point? Are you trying to compare what the Germans did to Jews in Europe to these pogroms? If you are, then you truly are a complete and utter moron.
Without narrow minded creatures like you, the world would be free from prejudice and hate.
Prejudice and hate are something you Germans should know a lot about. Didn't the Prussians want to wipe out Poles and Polish culture? Didn't the Nazis want to do the same?

That sort of thing takes time to get over, don't you think?

I don't think that relations between Poles and Germans will be "normal" for several generations to come. The vast majority of Poles don't really like Germans. But most Poles won't be rude and tell you that to your face. Maybe that's what makes them false, eh? They're probably jus too polite. That's why Xenon is still fooling himself that my views are somehow unique. No, compared to many Poles, my views are very moderate when it come to Germans. If you don't believe me, then go to some Polish forums and ask the people there (check out the links below). Or better still, go to Poland and wave the German flag around, and see what happens to you.

http://www.polishsoccer.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4

http://www2.gazeta.pl/forum/790620,3035 ... .html?f=13

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 13 Jul 2002 12:16

HETMAN wrote:Now, many Germans still think Hitler was great, and his plans were fantastic.
Not only Germans :mrgreen:
HETMAN wrote:I see that as a personal insult
Too bad.
HETMAN wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was the Germans who were resposnible for the Holocaust?
Plus Magyars, Croats, Romanians, Ukrainians..... :mrgreen:
HETMAN wrote:Didn't the Prussians want to wipe out Poles and Polish culture? Didn't the Nazis want to do the same?
So what??? :mrgreen:
HETMAN wrote:That's why Xenon is still fooling himself that my views are somehow unique.
Not even remotely unique, just typically Polish :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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van Grimberg
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Post by van Grimberg » 13 Jul 2002 13:20

HETMAN!

Maybe it's very hard for you to understand, but it's so simple :

1) German people from my generation are not responsible for the things that happend 60 years ago - they weren't even born. So how can you blame them for that ? Can you explain it me ? So...
The vast majority of Poles don't really like Germans.
If this is true, then I'm sorry to say, but it seems like that the Poles are a nation of dum asses - still haven't recongnized that WWII is over. Like you.

2) I really don't care if someone is from Africa, China, America or Poland. But if someone like YOU says...hey....you are from Germany...I don't like you...then I can only say...go home and kill your fucking self. What do you want ? Dickheads like you sneak over the boarder, steal some cars and talk shit - like the crap that comes out of your mouth.
If the whole polish nation consist of dregs like you... let's blast one of your hyper modern nuclear power stations. :roll:
Uupps..or did this happen already too often in the past...it would explain your brain tumour influenced statements.

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 13 Jul 2002 17:36

van Grimberg wrote:HETMAN!

Maybe it's very hard for you to understand, but it's so simple :

1) German people from my generation are not responsible for the things that happend 60 years ago - they weren't even born. So how can you blame them for that ? Can you explain it me ? So...
The vast majority of Poles don't really like Germans.
If this is true, then I'm sorry to say, but it seems like that the Poles are a nation of dum asses - still haven't recongnized that WWII is over. Like you.

2) I really don't care if someone is from Africa, China, America or Poland. But if someone like YOU says...hey....you are from Germany...I don't like you...then I can only say...go home and kill your fucking self. What do you want ? Dickheads like you sneak over the boarder, steal some cars and talk shit - like the crap that comes out of your mouth.
If the whole polish nation consist of dregs like you... let's blast one of your hyper modern nuclear power stations. :roll:
Uupps..or did this happen already too often in the past...it would explain your brain tumour influenced statements.

Yup, by and large, Poles don't like Germans. Get over it man. I thought everyone knew this? Obviously not. But it's a fact. You are the most disliked people in Poland. Germans are commonly reffered to in Poland as Nazis (Hitlerowcy) or Krauts (Szwaby). For example, when Germany was playing Brazil in the World Cup final, I heard people saying things like "the Nazis are playing Brazil in the final, hope they lose". That was easily the most common reaction. If Poles tell you they don't have anything against Germans, then they are almost always lying. That's why I find Xenon's comments so amusing.

But I really don't see why you're amazed by this. All of us Poles have been greatly affected by the war. If not personally, then through our families. I was told plenty of stories about what Germans did in my home town during WWII by my grandparents. How can I ignore that? And my family came off lightly. Others were wiped out all together. Yo think that's going to wash off in 45 years? How fucking stupid and ignorant are you?

But that was an interesting point you raised there Grimberg. Why hate your generation, who had nothing to do with WWII? Well, it's not just about WWII. Germans were bastards to Poles long before then, during the occupation of western Poland. So there's a pattern there. Should we just look at Germany as individuals, or as a nation. Is a nation something more than the people who happen to live there at a particular time? I think so. A nation has a history, a culture, a mentality. So it's not like we're blaming you for what happend 60 years ago. We're just being practical. This Germany where you live has a history, a culture and mentality which has proved dangerous to Poland on many occasions. I don't think that can be ignored. We'd be stupid to do so. There is something there that is anti-Polish and anti-Slavic in the German fabric which might come out again. Who knows?

Anyway, I think you should also be a little more realistic here. I think Germany has worked hard to get the reputation it has in Poland, and many other countries too. I mean, you can't just invade someone and try to wipe them off the map without leaving some kind of scars. It's not like stealing cars or working without a permit. I'm in my 20s and I'm certainly wary of all things German. I know 10 year old kids in Poland who feel the same way. I think the moral of the story is that it will take a long time to forget all the shit that went down between our two countries.

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 13 Jul 2002 17:43

Actually, here's a good post for Xenon from another forum. And you thought I was extreme. LOL

"if i could i would nuke those mother f****n germans

My grandfather was in auszwitz for four years, the gestapo arrested him due to being accused of owning a weapon and belonging to an underground organization. he didnt own a fucking weapon nor was he in a f***n underground oranization. he was tortured by the gestapo in a town of krasnik and sent to jail for 2 weeks then transfered to auszwitz he was forced to do slavery work from 7-5.
i heard so many stories from my grandfather and grandmother that its just f****n discusting what those asshole did to polish people, i hate germans and never will forget what they did, f**k them up there asses"

Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 13 Jul 2002 17:47

Here's another one...enjoy Xenon.

"I have a strong prejudice against Germans. I cant help it, every time i see their flag, hear their national anthem, just hear their f****g language i can feel hatred building up in me. At school i was the only person in the whole year not studying german, alot of my english friends also felt uncomfortable studing it.
I have the same views as Bialy_Orzel. my grandfather was also tortured, he was made to watch his own parents get murdered. he only managed to escape because they starved him that much, he was skinny enough to squeeze between the bars. im sure most people in here have heard stories about their families.
I cant forgive and forget no matter how much i tried. to some this may seem immature, 50 years on, but thats how i feel.
There are still large groups of nazis in germany, germans must have such evilness and racism in their genetics. Germans seem so f****g arrogant, think they are and must be better than everyone else. Germans of today are close relations to the nazis, they have the same blood and genetics.

I hate f****g germans and russians."

Xenon
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Post by Xenon » 13 Jul 2002 21:07

Never forget one thing : in the first line, we are human beings, then in the second, we are of a specific nationality. We have been born in Germany, and we feel german with our hearts. We have no responsibility for the debts of Nazis or other people, who misused our men and women, our country and our feelings for their purpose. We do not share their opinion, and we don't support people, who violate any human rights.

I see only one way : forgiving and stopping the provocations and hate. It is time to give chance to a new beginning. Lets take that chance.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 13 Jul 2002 23:09

Xenon wrote:Never forget one thing : in the first line, we are human beings, then in the second, we are of a specific nationality. We have been born in Germany, and we feel german with our hearts. We have no responsibility for the debts of Nazis or other people, who misused our men and women, our country and our feelings for their purpose. We do not share their opinion, and we don't support people, who violate any human rights.

I see only one way : forgiving and stopping the provocations and hate. It is time to give chance to a new beginning. Lets take that chance.
I can't believe that you apologize to this creature, after he had insulted you together with all your nation, and not only once !!!!

~Ovidius

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 13 Jul 2002 23:54

I think it's a great step forward that he apologize and every Germans who are still alive who lived during World War should apologize do to the Poles.

The new generation of Germans had nothing to do with the past so give them a chance.

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Post by Ovidius » 14 Jul 2002 00:57

Benoit Douville wrote:I think it's a great step forward that he apologize and every Germans who are still alive who lived during World War should apologize do to the Poles.
Yeah right. Interesting generalization.

But you're entitled to an opinion.

Just like I am, and I feel sick to see how Xenon, who was denigrated, insulted and whatever you like, on racial grounds(see HETMAN posts above), has nothing better to do than to play guilty and humiliate himself to HETMAN former General Anders former DPWES.

Any of us who ever said what HETMAN says, was threatened with banning, and if repeated, his act was punished by banning from the forum. At least two members who had otherwise published interesting and hard to find info, were banned. While HETMAN, who hardly publishes anything much interesting anyway, does whatever he wants, like he's on his private estate here.

~Ovidius

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 14 Jul 2002 03:25

Well, i think Hetman published something interesting very often, of course i don't agree with the words he used but a lot of topic that he put on the board are generally controversial and that make the board interesting. Let's face it the Third Reich subject is a controversial one.

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Post by Davey Boy » 14 Jul 2002 05:14

Who apologized? Xenon? He didn't apologize. And why should he? I know he wasn't around during the war.

See, the point I was making (which seems to have escaped Ovidius, once again) is that there are very real reasons why Poles should be wary of Germany. It can't be helped. There's too much baggage there. And like I said, a nation is not simply made up of the individuals who happen to live there at one time: every nation has a history, culture and mentality. In Germany's case, the history, culture and mentality has proved to be anti-Polish on several occasions.

But I never said all Germans were evil or subhuman, or that Germans deserve to die. Those two posts above weren't mine, they're from another forum. I just pasted them in to show what some Poles feel. I get along fine with many Germans on an individual basis. But let me reiterate: I am wary of Germany. Think about it, it does make sense.

I do, however, think that Nazis were evil. And I think there is plenty of historical evidence to prove my point. I think Nazi Germany was inherently evil, and I'm glad that it was crushed. I will always argue that, whether Ovi likes it or not.

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