What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
ljadw
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by ljadw » 18 Mar 2019 19:46

Stiltzkin wrote:
13 Mar 2019 16:21
The Soviets had enough boots : more than 30 million were available at the start of the war .This has already been discussed in the past .
Thats why they were importing them? Soviet stats are worth as much as toilet paper. Not to mention the massive amount of telephone lines and other gear which is usually overlooked. The inefficient field cultivation, harvesting and forced collectivizations which led to starvations. LL was a specially dedicated and target oriented aid, i.e. it was allocated towards special sectors which supported the war effort. Most of the studies which exist out there are just propaganda (such as the two cent theory) and usually compare wrong indicators.
Post war, the Soviets were salvaging all sorts of items from the occupied territories. One of them were shoes, from East Germany, Poland and the Baltics. I even talked to people who had to give them away. They were stripping apart entire factories.
By the way, 30 million shoes are not enough to support such a large army and the civilian sector simultaneously, especially if you have such a high attrition rate.
The Soviets mobilized 5 million men between June 22 and June 30 1941 : that proves that they had shoes enough in 1941 .That they received shoes from LL in 1942 and later does not mean that they had not enough shoes in 1941 .That they were confiscating shoes after the war does not prove that they had not enough shoes . In the Soviet system production of shoes,etc and distribution of shoes etc to the population were not related .

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Yuri
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Yuri » 19 Mar 2019 10:10

ljadw wrote:
18 Mar 2019 19:46
Stiltzkin wrote:
13 Mar 2019 16:21
The Soviets had enough boots : more than 30 million were available at the start of the war .This has already been discussed in the past .
Thats why they were importing them? Soviet stats are worth as much as toilet paper. Not to mention the massive amount of telephone lines and other gear which is usually overlooked. The inefficient field cultivation, harvesting and forced collectivizations which led to starvations. LL was a specially dedicated and target oriented aid, i.e. it was allocated towards special sectors which supported the war effort. Most of the studies which exist out there are just propaganda (such as the two cent theory) and usually compare wrong indicators.
Post war, the Soviets were salvaging all sorts of items from the occupied territories. One of them were shoes, from East Germany, Poland and the Baltics. I even talked to people who had to give them away. They were stripping apart entire factories.
By the way, 30 million shoes are not enough to support such a large army and the civilian sector simultaneously, especially if you have such a high attrition rate.
The Soviets mobilized 5 million men between June 22 and June 30 1941 : that proves that they had shoes enough in 1941 .That they received shoes from LL in 1942 and later does not mean that they had not enough shoes in 1941 .That they were confiscating shoes after the war does not prove that they had not enough shoes . In the Soviet system production of shoes,etc and distribution of shoes etc to the population were not related .
Russian_Lapty.jpg
lapty_shik.jpg
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1812 - The invasion of the Europeans the time of Napoleon
People's war club
13626_3c42b6ae1081cfbe07fae0d4b1a64526.jpg
French_Lapty.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Yuri » 19 Mar 2019 10:16

1918-1921 - The Red Army reflects the European-American-Japanese invaders
Red Army reflects the European-American-Japanese invaders.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Yuri » 19 Mar 2019 10:32

Great Invasion Of Europeans 1941-1944.
Europeans took away from the Russian women and children footwear
03101.jpg
And again, Russian people wear Lapty.
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2RIAN_00417551.jpeg
sav-132.jpg
5778_lapti.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Yuri » 19 Mar 2019 10:39

In the Russian village of bast shoes can weave every man, but good (waterproof) weave only a real master,
even with top
image.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Yuri » 19 Mar 2019 12:44

In winter 41/42 the Europeans appreciate the advantages of lapty.
КЗ_2701428.jpg
2jmj7l5rSw0yVb-vlWAYkK-YBwk=UTYyZ1B4YS5qcGc.jpg
The Hugo Boss's/Versace's Lapty
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8a722392cb686fcf7012c9932480afd3c0ab0f86.jpeg
U2M - 0019.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Yuri » 19 Mar 2019 13:14

Russian women estimate the Hugo Boss's/Versace's Lapty.
KMO_161218_00019_1_t218_182124.jpg
Russian soldiers try the Hugo Boss's/Versace's lapty in the dance.
8ea99b876623532fd76fa9bdfaa8997e.jpg
But the russian children love the Hugo Boss's/Versace's lapty.
ВалИст05.jpg
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paulrward
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by paulrward » 19 Mar 2019 17:42

Hello All :

by ljadw » 18 Mar 2019 11:46

.
In the Soviet system production of shoes,etc and distribution of shoes etc to the population were not related .

And here at last we have an admission of why the Soviet Union was so screwed up in 1941 that Barbarossa brought them to their
knees, and forced them to rely on the Lend Lease of the United States. Their Production and Distribution were UNRELATED !

Just take a moment and contemplate a system where the production of goods and services is UNRELATED to their distribution !

Does the acronym P F C mean anything to you, Mr. Ljadw ? How about S N A F U ? Or how about just....... U S S R ?

I want to thank you, Mr. Ljadw. You have brought a smile to the face and a laugh to the lips of every American reading this
forum !

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward

ljadw
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by ljadw » 19 Mar 2019 19:24

There is nothing special on this : in a capitalist economy, you need to sell what you produce, otherwise bankruptcy is coming. Very fast .
In a communist economy, there is no such need ,as the state can not become broken . The fools that want make money are going to the Gulag .
There was in the SU a ministry of shoe production and a ministry of shoe distribution . If 10 million shoes were made and 5 million only were sold, the next year the Kremlin ordered to increase the production by 10 % .Shoes were not made to be sold, but the production of shoes was an aim on itself . The bigger the production, the better .And this was the same for oil, for coal, for food , etc.
The essence of the 5-years plans was to produce more ,always more . What happened to the production was irrelevant .
The triumfant reports of the results of the plans always mentioned how much more was produced, but never what happened to the production .

ljadw
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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by ljadw » 19 Mar 2019 19:28

No one cared if the customer disliked the shoes .The wishes of the public were irrelevant . Shoes that not were sold were stocked and the following year the customer was faced again with ugly shoes in the stores .The producer decided, not the buyer .

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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 24 Mar 2019 01:35

Richard Anderson wrote:
16 Mar 2019 00:23
...

In a sense, yes, if the Lend-Lease sustainment requirement was eliminated, then the US theoretically would have been able to generate Wedemeyer's 215-division "Victory Plan"...except it was never a "plan", but rather a requirements study. However, given the reality of the poorly-managed US manpower effort - we were by far the least mobilized of the major belligerents - I have no doubt 215 divisions was still unrealistic as well.
I'd have thought maybe a dozen extra US ground combat divisions, along with corps and army overhead out of the Soviet LL. Eighty extra does sound a bit 'large' under any circumstance.

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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Politician01 » 12 Mar 2020 15:07

There was a pretty good in depth article on this in the Journal of Slavic Military Studies a few years ago.

Basically it came to the conclusion:

Germany against the USSR without LL and without US/GB military Intervention = USSR loses big time.
Germany against USSR with LL but without US/GB Military Intervention = Possible Soviet defeat in 1941/42 - stalemate if USSR survives until 1943.
Germany against USSR without LL but with US/GB Military Intervention = Stalemate by the time of Kursk or very slow crawl throughout Eastern Europe.

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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by ljadw » 13 Mar 2020 16:11

Politician01 wrote:
12 Mar 2020 15:07
There was a pretty good in depth article on this in the Journal of Slavic Military Studies a few years ago.

Basically it came to the conclusion:

Germany against the USSR without LL and without US/GB military Intervention = USSR loses big time.
Germany against USSR with LL but without US/GB Military Intervention = Possible Soviet defeat in 1941/42 - stalemate if USSR survives until 1943.
Germany against USSR without LL but with US/GB Military Intervention = Stalemate by the time of Kursk or very slow crawl throughout Eastern Europe.
They are wrong :
Germany against USSR without LL and without US/UK intervention : Germany loses .Reason : LL is irrelevant and without US/UK intervention gives the same result as with US/UK intervention .
The case with LL and without US/UK intervention gives the same result,because the absence of Wally intervention does not make Germany stronger, it is the opposite .
The case of without LL and with Wally intervention gives the same result as the Wally intervention started only in September 1943 and Germany would lose before September 1943 .
The absence or presence of Wally intervention would not help /hurt Germany : the capitulation of Britain before June 1941 would make Barbarossa impossible as the divisions needed for the occupation of Britain and Ireland would make the Ostheer to weak ,from 150 divisions to less than 120 divisions .
That Germany would lose in the last case ( no LL ,but Wally intervention ) is proved by what happened in the HTL : LL and Wally intervention happened only in 1943, AFTER Stalingrad , after the failure of Typhoon,after the failure of Barbarossa : Germany lost in the summer of 1941, without LL and without Wally intervention .

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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by Politician01 » 13 Mar 2020 18:21

ljadw wrote:
13 Mar 2020 16:11
They are wrong :
Well, between a peer reviewed articel, published in a high quality journal - and some ridiculous unsupported claims made by you - I think Im going to assume that you are the one who is wrong.

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Re: What if......no Lend-Lease to the Soviets?

Post by ljadw » 13 Mar 2020 21:00

Your argument of authority is not a valid one : capitulation of Britain (= no Wally intervention ) means
a 30 divisions less for the Ostheer
b NO Barbarossa, no war with the USSR .
The facts prove your peer reviewed article ( who are these peers ?) to be wrong .
It is the same for the opposite : a neutral or defeated USSR would not give Germany victory against the Wallies .
It was the same in 1914-1918 : the defeat of Russia did not result in a German victory in the West ,and in 1914 Germany had no Aufmarschanweisung Ost, because Germany had not the means to defeat Russia .It was the same in 1941 .
If the Wallies were neutral,there was no reason to attack the USSR.
If the Wallies were defeated, a successful attack of the USSR was impossible .
Al the rest is a suspect reconstruction of the past to make Germany the winner of the war .

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