German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

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kfbr392
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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

Post by kfbr392 » 28 Dec 2016 20:38

stg 44 wrote:Developing something like the 'Mehrzweckpanzer' or just replacing both the Pz III and IV with a VK2001 development that Daimler had under development and would have been ready FAR sooner than any version of the Panther or T-34 knockoff was far more useful to the German war effort than the flawed DB VK3002.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_20
Apparently the main "flaw" was that it was believed in May 1942 that its turret would not be ready for production by the end of that year. The special commission identified other benefits of the MAN over the DB design, but this appears to only serve to justify the decision taken because of the impetus to have the Panther at the front for the anticipated 1943 spring offensive.
From Jentz "Germany's Panther tank":
Unbenannt.PNG
In what way was the DB VK3002 flawed, or rather, flawed beyond the MAN design that won the competition? External leaf springs and a diesel engine were not flaws. The Jagdpanzer 38D design of the fall of 1944 had those...
The isolated motor compartment - oh pleeeeeease!
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stg 44
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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

Post by stg 44 » 28 Dec 2016 21:47

kfbr392 wrote:
stg 44 wrote:Developing something like the 'Mehrzweckpanzer' or just replacing both the Pz III and IV with a VK2001 development that Daimler had under development and would have been ready FAR sooner than any version of the Panther or T-34 knockoff was far more useful to the German war effort than the flawed DB VK3002.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_20
Apparently the main "flaw" was that it was believed in May 1942 that its turret would not be ready for production by the end of that year. The special commission identified other benefits of the MAN over the DB design, but this appears to only serve to justify the decision taken because of the impetus to have the Panther at the front for the anticipated 1943 spring offensive.
From Jentz "Germany's Panther tank": Unbenannt.PNG
In what way was the DB VK3002 flawed, or rather, flawed beyond the MAN design that won the competition? External leaf springs and a diesel engine were not flaws. The Jagdpanzer 38D design of the fall of 1944 had those...
The isolated motor compartment - oh pleeeeeease!
It was nose heavy, a problem with the T-34 too, which the long gun did not help, was very front loaded, which put pressure on the suspension in an uneven way (also a problem of the MAN design thanks to the armor upgrade), and the armor was sloped in a way that it couldn't take the bigger gun/turret without a major redesign (like the T-34/85, which weakened the hull armor to get a bigger turret). The VK3002 DB wouldn't have been available sooner than the MAN design unless it dumped the L70 gun and just used a L48...but then the VK3002 MAN design would have been ready just as soon without having to uparmor or take the heavier gun/turret either.

Granted on the whole the Daimler designed had important features like the rear drive that were pretty important and lowered the weight/height compared to the MAN design. Of the two the Daimler was probably less bad in conception if it were allowed to take the L48 75mm gun.

ThatZenoGuy
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Re: German-produced T34 copy from mid 1942

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 19 Dec 2021 13:19

Hoolaman wrote:
21 Jul 2004 01:20
What if the Germans had copied the T-34 as I believe was proposed, until other models had become available.

Of course you can imagine the upgrades and improvements to optics, guns and interior layout that they could achieve but the basics are the same.

What improvements do you think would have been made, what gun and engine used. If they began to reach the front in mid 1942 how would it change the war.
Assuming EXACT copy hull-wise, the "T-German4" likely features the 75mm L/48 gun, with possible upgrades to the 75mm L/70 if a larger turret is developed and turret ring is increased (after all the Russians managed to squeeze in an 85).

Engine-wise is tricky, the Germans didn't really use Diesel tank engines although they did have a few plans for some. I can only assume you can squeeze in a Maybach or maybe a smaller SLA diesel in the back? The bigger problem really is transmissions, of which Germany had exactly...Zero production rear transmission tanks outside of the electric tanks.

As for changes in the war, Germany might actually suffer more losses as the change to producing these tanks might cost a great many tanks they otherwise would have built. Its not like copying the T-34 gives you more factories or production techniques. If we want to be funny we could argue the Americans 'gift' the Germans a bunch of factories much like how Russia got some to help build stuff. XD

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