"Bastard" Electro U-boats From Early 1943?

[ThatZenoGuy]

What about early anti-escort weapons? A big problem was a corvette could outrun a submerged Uboat. So instead of being reactive, we go proactive and salvo-fire slow moving guided 'mines' at them?

Even if they are expensive to build, a whole ship surely is more expensive.

[kfbr392]

some of the "big midget subs" mentioned would be hard to imagine (under any scenario) being ready by '43 or early '44 don't you think?

they had already identified the need for a larger diesel engine for the Seeteufel as well as improved tracks, cannot imagine the KM could proceed thru the development of an engine using liquid oxygen as fast as they could prepare more conventional types?

OTOH, my rationale for pressing the Type XXIII forward prior to the Type XXI, is that it seems more feasible to actually produce and it would not monopolize all their production, so you could envision the production of some of the more advanced types?

The 98 ton boat I mentioned was designed in 1945, based on its Roman number.
The whole midget submarine program only started in 1943 after the Germans had captured similar British crafts. The closed circuit propulsion - feeding oxygen into the recycled combustion air - is a manageable engineering challenge. With 20/20 hindsight, the whole midget submarine program could’ve been started years earlier, yes.

Regarding the XXI and XXIII: The first was too large (for the Western Approaches), the second a bit too small (no reloads). An 800 ton boat could have replaced both from the outset (1943).

[kfbr392]

What about early anti-escort weapons? A big problem was a corvette could outrun a submerged Uboat. So instead of being reactive, we go proactive and salvo-fire slow moving guided 'mines' at them?

There was something under development in 1944: the Ursel anti-destroyer underwater upwards-and-astern firing unguided fin-stabilized cavitating missile:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=60011

[ThatZenoGuy]

What about early anti-escort weapons? A big problem was a corvette could outrun a submerged Uboat. So instead of being reactive, we go proactive and salvo-fire slow moving guided 'mines' at them?

There was something under development in 1944: the Ursel anti-destroyer underwater upwards-and-astern firing unguided fin-stabilized cavitating missile:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=60011

Now that is pretty cool! Although it seems like aiming the weapon must've been a nightmare and VERY risky.

[kfbr392]

I am surprised to see an Ursel installation on the foredeck in that artists impression. That is not in line with what Rössler wrote. I read of rear deck only.
In terms of aiming, it’s actually quite simple. The U-boat, using a special passive hydrophone called “SP-Gerät” mounted on the rear deck, turns its stern precisely towards the approaching destroyer. Once the destroyer is 45° (or similar angle, but presumably fixed) up and straight behind, as indicated by SP-Gerät, a missile is launched. You aim with the whole boat. After launch, flank speed, full rudder, and change of depth.
The Germans were not aware of Hedgehog/Squid, though IIRC…

[ThatZenoGuy]

I am surprised to see an Ursel installation on the foredeck in that artists impression. That is not in line with what Rössler wrote. I read of rear deck only.
In terms of aiming, it’s actually quite simple. The U-boat, using a special passive hydrophone called “SP-Gerät” mounted on the rear deck, turns its stern precisely towards the approaching destroyer. Once the destroyer is 45° (or similar angle, but presumably fixed) up and straight behind, as indicated by SP-Gerät, a missile is launched. You aim with the whole boat. After launch, flank speed, full rudder, and change of depth.
The Germans were not aware of Hedgehog/Squid, though IIRC…

That's the issue with the system though, Hedgehog isn't especially long ranged, but I wouldn't want to be remotely close to a ship armed with it if I was in a submarine, Ursel or not.

Germans seemed to REALLY be good at making passive hydrophones which could make targetting solutions.

[kfbr392]

any WW2 sub is highly vulnerable to its enemies’ weapons. meaning it does not have the protection, speed and gun firepower of surface combattants.

The best option is always to remain undetected.
The second best option is to evade once detected.
The third best option is to hit the enemy just before he’s hitting you.

Ursel was not for hunting destroyers. It was meant to be a desperate lucky punch moments before the depth charges were released. Something to strike back with during the otherwise help- and defenseless hours of being depth charged dozens or even hundreds of times.

yes, Germany was leading in the area of passive underwater listening.

[Destroyer500]

Was there ever a weapon the subs could use to hit a ship exactly vertically below it ? Would such a weapons even make sense ?

[ThatZenoGuy]

Was there ever a weapon the subs could use to hit a ship exactly vertically below it ? Would such a weapons even make sense ?

Typically if a destroyer is right above you, that...Is often telling that you're going to be very dead very soon.

[Destroyer500]

Typically if a destroyer is right above you, that...Is often telling that you're going to be very dead very soon.

Even if youre really deep bellow it
?

[ThatZenoGuy]

Typically if a destroyer is right above you, that...Is often telling that you're going to be very dead very soon.

Even if youre really deep bellow it
?

Well, that might depend on the destroyer in question, and what bearing it is going. XD

[Destroyer500]

Well, that might depend on the destroyer in question, and what bearing it is going. XD

Well yea sure but my main question is if what i propose is even barely practical ?