Me262 up to Korean War standards?

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Von Schadewald
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Me262 up to Korean War standards?

Post by Von Schadewald » 05 Jun 2005 21:23

Assuming it's engines had been uprated and made reliable, and the aircraft fully developed, would an Me262 still have been able to mix it with a 1950 Meteor, Vampire, Sabre or Mig 15 in Korean war type combat? Or would it have been totally outclassed by then?

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Von Schadewald
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Post by Von Schadewald » 05 Jun 2005 21:51

This topic I just posted on the Luftwaffe forum, who's moderator promptly moved it here, where it will no doubt be equally promptly locked, as its post-1945. I think it should have been moved to the "Post-WW2 Military Conflicts & Equipment" forum.

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Post by Zygmunt » 05 Jun 2005 23:45

Of course, you could have saved yourself (and the moderators) the trouble, by just adding to the existing thread in which this question crops up:

"Best Korean War Fighter--Mig or Sabre?"

The question gets asked in this post, way back in October 2003.

Zygmunt

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Tim Smith
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Post by Tim Smith » 06 Jun 2005 06:40

The Me262 would be outclassed by 1950, regardless of developments to its airframe and engine. It would still be useful for bomber interception and for ground attack, but as an air superiority fighter, the Sabre and MiG 15 would be far superior.

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Kurt_Steiner
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Post by Kurt_Steiner » 06 Jun 2005 07:06

I agree with Tim. By the 1950s, there would be better fighters than the Me262, eve if it's improved and has better and more reliable engines. Also, I think that his main weapons were not the good ones to be used again fast fighters, as the speed of the bullets were too slow for that.

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Englander
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Post by Englander » 06 Jun 2005 12:02

Kurt_Steiner wrote: Also, I think that his main weapons were not the good ones to be used again fast fighters, as the speed of the bullets were too slow for that.
The MG 213 cannon can fire a 20mm cannon shell at 3,300 feet per second, and at a rate of 1,200 rounds per minute. Simply the best! as the winning side will testify, they copied it.

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Kakita Harry
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Post by Kakita Harry » 06 Jun 2005 12:21

Englander wrote:
Kurt_Steiner wrote: Also, I think that his main weapons were not the good ones to be used again fast fighters, as the speed of the bullets were too slow for that.
The MG 213 cannon can fire a 20mm cannon shell at 3,300 feet per second, and at a rate of 1,200 rounds per minute. Simply the best! as the winning side will testify, they copied it.
sadly, the Me 262 was not armed with that weapon! :P

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Post by Von Schadewald » 06 Jun 2005 12:56

Just one of the the Me262's MK108 "Minengeschoss" shell's would blow a Sabre away, but would only 1600 fps and 600 rpm disadvantage it in jet to jet combat?

http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html
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Paul in Saudi
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Post by Paul in Saudi » 06 Jun 2005 16:02

Sure is a pretty plane when it is all cleaned up. The wartime B&W photos do not do it justice.

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Englander
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Post by Englander » 06 Jun 2005 17:44

Kakita Harry wrote:
Englander wrote:
Kurt_Steiner wrote: Also, I think that his main weapons were not the good ones to be used again fast fighters, as the speed of the bullets were too slow for that.
The MG 213 cannon can fire a 20mm cannon shell at 3,300 feet per second, and at a rate of 1,200 rounds per minute. Simply the best! as the winning side will testify, they copied it.
sadly, the Me 262 was not armed with that weapon! :P
From an Englander point of view i'll have to say gladly the Me 262 was not armed with that weapon! But to answer your point the question was based around this comment.
Assuming it's engines had been uprated and made reliable, and the aircraft fully developed

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General Szostak
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Me262 up to Korean War standards?

Post by General Szostak » 07 Jun 2005 06:37

You,know a better idea would be to upgrade the Me-262's guns the MK108 with a revolver lengthen the barrel and increase shell length for more powder(or just lengthen the barrel and add a bigger shell if the revover is not complete by then) and replace all six 50. cal who already were showing their age as a dog fighting gun and replace them with an upgraded MK 108 imagene six upgraded Mk-108's firing all at once at a MIG-15 being destroyed with less than 5 rounds instead of the 50.cals quater,half to full stores of ammo to bring one Mig down plus the sabre being much bigger would allow them to carry a hugh load of 30mm shells and finally in doing this the US would not use the 20mm shell on the M61 Vulcan gun(by the way this excellent round the 20mm is already showing age being outclassed by soviet and nato 23mm,25mm,and 27mm mini-guns and revolver cannons)the US would use 30mm's on its SUU-mini guns and later Vulcan guns and we might even see the 30mm vulcan with the same firing rate as of now which is 6,000 rounds and is the fastest multi-barreld weapon in the world.

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Gumocska
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Post by Gumocska » 07 Jun 2005 21:12

Hi,

Probably you are right, and the 262 would have been outdated by the early 50s, at least as an air superiority fighter. In fact, it was not designed or used as an air superiority fighter, and up to my knowledge it was never used to dogfight Mustangs and Spits. In fact, when engaged in classical maneuvering combat, the only thing it could count on was its superior speed and the stunts it could perform due to its jet propulsion vs the props of the opponents. The 262 was clearly to avoid the fighters by its speed and decimate the bomber ranks. Thats why the four MK108. The germans were not dumb, they new the disadvantages of this monster in a dogfight, but to bring down a four-engine bomber... Well, best to have four of those things.

As a different thought, I am not an expert on the subject, but I belive the next generation jet fighter of the 3rd Reich would have been the FW-183. Does it remind you any of the Korean War designs?...
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Kurt_Steiner
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Post by Kurt_Steiner » 08 Jun 2005 09:38

Well, not surprising, bearing in mind the following:
After the war, the Ta 183 story continued. The Soviets found a complete set of plans for the Ta 183 in Berlin at the RLM offices, and began construction of six prototypes in March 1946 by the MIG design bureau. On July 2, 1947, the first Soviet-built Ta 183 took to the air powered by a British Rolls-Royce "Nene" turbojet. They discovered that the original Ta 183 design needed either automatic leading edge slots or wing boundry layer fences to alleviate low-speed stalling. Also, as a compromise between high-speed and low-speed flying, the horizontal stabilizer was moved approximately one-third down from the top of the vertical tail. The modified Ta 183 first flew on December 30, 1947 and in May 1948 was ordered into production as the MIG 15.
from http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html

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Re:

Post by Cantankerous » 13 Feb 2021 03:46

Kurt_Steiner wrote:
08 Jun 2005 09:38
Well, not surprising, bearing in mind the following:
After the war, the Ta 183 story continued. The Soviets found a complete set of plans for the Ta 183 in Berlin at the RLM offices, and began construction of six prototypes in March 1946 by the MIG design bureau. On July 2, 1947, the first Soviet-built Ta 183 took to the air powered by a British Rolls-Royce "Nene" turbojet. They discovered that the original Ta 183 design needed either automatic leading edge slots or wing boundry layer fences to alleviate low-speed stalling. Also, as a compromise between high-speed and low-speed flying, the horizontal stabilizer was moved approximately one-third down from the top of the vertical tail. The modified Ta 183 first flew on December 30, 1947 and in May 1948 was ordered into production as the MIG 15.
from http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html
In a book about the MiG-15 published in 2001, Yefim Gordon refutes the story about the MiG-15 being based on the Ta 183, noting that the Mikoyan-Gurevich design bureau used the MiG-8 Utka experimental aircraft for testing the back swept wing of the MiG-15, and that the Ta 183 was not meant to travel at over 600 miles per hour (unlike the MiG-15).

Gordon, Yefim. Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15: The Soviet Union's Long-Lived Korean War Fighter. Earl Shilton, Leicester, UK: Midland Publishing Ltd., 2001. ISBN 1-85780-105-9.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re:

Post by T. A. Gardner » 13 Feb 2021 05:46

Gumocska wrote:
07 Jun 2005 21:12
Hi,

Probably you are right, and the 262 would have been outdated by the early 50s, at least as an air superiority fighter. In fact, it was not designed or used as an air superiority fighter, and up to my knowledge it was never used to dogfight Mustangs and Spits. In fact, when engaged in classical maneuvering combat, the only thing it could count on was its superior speed and the stunts it could perform due to its jet propulsion vs the props of the opponents. The 262 was clearly to avoid the fighters by its speed and decimate the bomber ranks. Thats why the four MK108. The germans were not dumb, they new the disadvantages of this monster in a dogfight, but to bring down a four-engine bomber... Well, best to have four of those things.

As a different thought, I am not an expert on the subject, but I belive the next generation jet fighter of the 3rd Reich would have been the FW-183. Does it remind you any of the Korean War designs?...
A derivative of the Ta 183 was actually designed and built by Tank, flying in Argentina in 1950. This was the FMA 33 Pulqui II. While only 4 were built, they were flown enough to show that the design wasn't up to snuff with the F-86 or MiG 15. The design suffered from a number of aerodynamic issues that made it a bit dangerous to fly as well.
So, the Ta 183 can safely be counted out as a contender I'd say.

Image

On the issue of weapons, the US had the M39 revolver cannon based on the Mauser MG213 design and tested it in Korea under a program called Gunval. F 86F's shot down 6 and damaged 12 MiG 15 using this gun in testing there. The results were impressive enough that it ended further use of the M3 .50 machinegun by the USAF.

The Mk 108 30mm would have proven a poor weapon in the high speed twisting dogfights between jet fighters.

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