Italian Alpine Corps

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Andy H
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Italian Alpine Corps

#1

Post by Andy H » 21 Sep 2002, 15:49

had been used in the Caucasus, would their use have had far reaching decisions on the war in the East.

The Alpine Corp were sitting out on the flat Russian steppe whilst List with only 2 German and 1 Romanian Mountain Division tried to force the Caucasus range. If they (With the Italian Mtn Divisions) had conquered the Caucasus would the Russians have launched Op Uranus and the defeat of the 6th Army and the collapse of the whols southern front-MAYBE NOT :mrgreen:

:D aNDY FROM THE sHIRE

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#2

Post by Victor » 21 Sep 2002, 17:10

Back when the forum was on ezboard, I had a similar theory. I wondered what would have happened if instead of lining the two Romanian and one Italian Axis armies near Stalingrad they would have been used in the Caucasus and the German 11th and 17th (without their Romanian units) would have taken their place. The Caucasus was more suited for the equipment of the three Axis armies, than the steppe, as the Romanian 2nd Mountain Division proved it.


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Antonio Pena
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Italian Alpine Corps

#3

Post by Antonio Pena » 21 Sep 2002, 23:31

I think that the Germans are trying to go thru the Caucasus Mountains to the Oilfields of Baku, so they needed good troops to defaeat the Russians in the mountains and to continue in the lowlands. I suppose that the OKH looking the splendid performance of the Italian troops (include the Alpini, yes, look the French front in 1940, where the Alpin troops are not capable to penetrate the French defenses) prefers to use his own troops.

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Sam H.
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#4

Post by Sam H. » 23 Sep 2002, 01:16

I think part of the problem was that Hitler kept changing his mind about what was more important, Stalingrad or the Oil Fields.

He had the 4th PZ Army zig-zagging across the 6th Army's path. If Hitler had made concrete plans and stuck with them, then, perhaps, we would have seen how valuable the Italian Alpine Divisions could be in a situation that suited their training.

Got to admit, it doesn't make much sence using mountain troops in the open steppes like that!

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Andy H
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#5

Post by Andy H » 23 Sep 2002, 18:38

There were very few fixed defensive posistions with the Caucasus, compared to the heavily fortified Alps. Even if the Germans wanted 'Better' troops for the exploitation phase surely it still made sense to use the Italian Alpine Corps to make the breakthrough and German forces to pass through to the oilfields?

:D Andy from the Shire

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Re: Italian Alpine Corps

#6

Post by nobodyofnote » 11 Jun 2011, 19:28

Image

Sacrifice on the Steppe: The Italian Alpine Corps in the Stalingrad Campaign, 1942-1943 by Hope Hamiton (ISBN 9781612000022)

Has anybody read this book or can recommend it?

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Why not the Balkans?

#7

Post by Dave Bender » 11 Jun 2011, 20:41

If the Italian Alpine Corps were any good then let Italy fight their own war in the Balkans. That frees up a large German force for employment in Operation Barbarossa.

If the Italian Alpine Corps isn't any good then it hardly matters where they are employed. They are just a target for the enemy to destroy.

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Andy H
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Re: Why not the Balkans?

#8

Post by Andy H » 13 Jun 2011, 01:01

Dave Bender wrote:If the Italian Alpine Corps were any good then let Italy fight their own war in the Balkans. That frees up a large German force for employment in Operation Barbarossa.

If the Italian Alpine Corps isn't any good then it hardly matters where they are employed. They are just a target for the enemy to destroy.
Hi David

The German forces mainly employed in the Balkans were 2nd rate and so hardly suitable for frontline deployment in the mtns or steppes of southern Russia

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Andy H

Dave Bender
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German forces mainly employed in the Balkans were 2nd rate

#9

Post by Dave Bender » 13 Jun 2011, 02:21

German OOB for Balkans. as of 5 April 1941.
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=6468
I disagree. The April 1941 German invasion of the Balkans employed first rate Heer and Luftwaffe units.

Let Italy clean up their own Balkan mess during April 1941. Bulgaria and Hungary will assist. It's their neighborhood.

The German parachute division, 5 Geob.Div and 6 Geob.Div plus the huge Ju-52 fleet historically committed to Crete will seize the Port of Murmansk. This attack will be supported by an additional fighter gruppe and an additional dive bomber gruppe.

That still leaves a bunch of first rate Heer divsions to reinforce Army Group Center and Army Group South plus a considerable amount of additional air power. More then enough to compensate for the absence of Italian and Hungarian units.

Romania will still participate in Operation Barbarossa as they want to recover territory recently seized by Stalin.

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Re: Italian Alpine Corps

#10

Post by princeliberty10311517 » 18 Jun 2011, 22:33

Andy H wrote:had been used in the Caucasus, would their use have had far reaching decisions on the war in the East.

The Alpine Corp were sitting out on the flat Russian steppe whilst List with only 2 German and 1 Romanian Mountain Division tried to force the Caucasus range. If they (With the Italian Mtn Divisions) had conquered the Caucasus would the Russians have launched Op Uranus and the defeat of the 6th Army and the collapse of the whols southern front-MAYBE NOT :mrgreen:

:D aNDY FROM THE sHIRE
Sounds like a good idea - I agree the fundamental strategic problem was Hitler's failure to stay of focused on the plan to seize the oil fields and getting on this crazy desirer to take Stalingard for the sake of it.

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Re: Italian Alpine Corps

#11

Post by MrTom » 22 Jun 2011, 15:20

I am having a hard time discerning how "elite" the Alpini were in relation to their regular army countarparts anyway...

During the Ostrogoshk-Roshosh operation, the Alpine corps was blown away, much the same as the rest of the 8th Army was in Little Saturn. Of course, it wasn't in mountainous terrain, but still...

Would their specialist training be enough to make a difference in the Caucasus? Big maybe... Gebirgs Jaegers found it hard going too, didn't they?
Unity of Command: The Stalingrad Campaign
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Re: Italian Alpine Corps

#12

Post by princeliberty10311517 » 22 Jun 2011, 22:13

Infantry forces with little tank or artillery support on flat terrain facing an assualt from huge numbers of tanks backing up huge numbers of artillery - usually don't fare too well.

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Re: Italian Alpine Corps

#13

Post by MrTom » 24 Jun 2011, 13:06

Infantry forces with little tank or artillery support on flat terrain facing an assualt from huge numbers of tanks backing up huge numbers of artillery - usually don't fare too well.
Fair enough, but read on...

I think the difficulties with this Alpine Corps scenario are on both ends. Number one, it's unlikely that Alpini troops would do much better in the Caucasus than Germans. And even more importantly, three or four german divisions wouldn't make much diference on the Don at that time - you would still have hundreds of kilometers of front held by weak allied troops. That's plenty of space for Soviets to break through with their massed armor.

The interesting thing though, is what would have happened if Germans did break through the passes? Did they have plans to get help from various non-Russian nationalities in the region?

How resilient would the Soviet state apparatus in the Caucasus be anyway, once disconnected from central Russia?
Unity of Command: The Stalingrad Campaign
http://unityofcommand.net/

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Re: Italian Alpine Corps

#14

Post by princeliberty10311517 » 27 Jun 2011, 03:32

I doubt the Soviet state apparatus would fare well once disconnected - people of Caucasus region were dominated by some of the most restless of minorty groups in the Soviet Union.

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Re: Italian Alpine Corps

#15

Post by princeliberty10311517 » 27 Jun 2011, 03:40

There is possbility that greater success in the south might keep Hitler focused on the oil fields so he sticks to game plan and sends nobody into Stalingard. And then the Germans have a shot at launching couterattacks to envelop the Soviet Armies after they attack. And nobody is in Stalingard getting trapped.

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