The Modern German Empire

[soldat_m56]

The Hochseeflotte was strong on paper but the kaiser was afriad to lose any of his ships, which is kind of absurd considering a navy is made to fight the enemy. The U-boats were the best subs in the world at the time, so it would better for the Kaiserlichemarine to become a world pioneer in submarine warfare following WWI. It is hard, although not impossible, to have a strong army AND navy at the same time. Germany undoubtably chose the army over the navy.

Karl I died in 1922. He might have lived longer, had it not been for the deposition...

What exactly did he die from so early? I forgot. BTW would AH break up after the war or after Karl I's death? I have as probable countries that would result being Austria, Hungary, and Bosnia. Croatia maybe, but Czechs would most likely remain under Austrians for a while. Of course I am no expert in Eastern European claims and politics.

Would Germany's colonies gain independence like other empires'? Does anyone want to suggest what actions they would have taken against the colony, or would they just let them declare independence (unlikely IMO)?

[waldorf]

What exactly did he die from so early?

I believe he died from pneumonia.

Chris

[Roddoss72]

I also think that in this thread the prices for a pro German Russian Government would be a massive expansion of Germany claiming almost certainly the territories of ethnic Poland, and Polish Byelorussia, and Ukraine and probably the entire Baltic Region. I believe that Austria-Hungary would have dissolved, along these lines Austria would retain Bohemia & Moravia, Slovenia and Croatia, while Hungary retains Slovakia and the vast portion of or the entire Transylvania (Roumania today).

And the German Imperial Navy would be still impressive but useless, the Imperial High Command of the Navy, were scared (Rightly or Wrongly) to engage the enemy. Ill add more later. cya.

[Davide Pastore]

I believe that Austria-Hungary would have dissolved

Why ?

Davide

[soldat_m56]

Roddoss72 wrote:
I believe that Austria-Hungary would have dissolved

Why ?

Davide

Austria-Hungary was full of many different ethnic groups, and wasn't destined to stay together if if they won. The internal struggles were too great. I'm sure someone else could explain this better.

Roddoss72 wrote:

I also think that in this thread the prices for a pro German Russian Government would be a massive expansion of Germany claiming almost certainly the territories of ethnic Poland, and Polish Byelorussia, and Ukraine and probably the entire Baltic Region. I believe that Austria-Hungary would have dissolved, along these lines Austria would retain Bohemia & Moravia, Slovenia and Croatia, while Hungary retains Slovakia and the vast portion of or the entire Transylvania (Roumania today).

Why would Germany want to bring hostile areas into the empire? The Poles and Belorussians would be more trouble directly in Germany than in a under a puppet government. I saw a map from a WWI book that showed western Russia divided into several countries under the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk - Poland (consisting of former Russian Poland and some Belorussian lands), Ukrainian Republic, the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), and Finland (including Karelia of course). Presumably the Germans would have set these borders in a post war agreement. I agree with how you split AH. It is exactly as I had in mind.

[Roddoss72]

Roddoss72 wrote:
I believe that Austria-Hungary would have dissolved

Why ?

Davide

Austria-Hungary was full of many different ethnic groups, and wasn't destined to stay together if if they won. The internal struggles were too great. I'm sure someone else could explain this better.

Roddoss72 wrote:

I also think that in this thread the prices for a pro German Russian Government would be a massive expansion of Germany claiming almost certainly the territories of ethnic Poland, and Polish Byelorussia, and Ukraine and probably the entire Baltic Region. I believe that Austria-Hungary would have dissolved, along these lines Austria would retain Bohemia & Moravia, Slovenia and Croatia, while Hungary retains Slovakia and the vast portion of or the entire Transylvania (Roumania today).

Why would Germany want to bring hostile areas into the empire? The Poles and Belorussians would be more trouble directly in Germany than in a under a puppet government. I saw a map from a WWI book that showed western Russia divided into several countries under the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk - Poland (consisting of former Russian Poland and some Belorussian lands), Ukrainian Republic, the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), and Finland (including Karelia of course). Presumably the Germans would have set these borders in a post war agreement. I agree with how you split AH. It is exactly as I had in mind.

I was thinking of only of an expansionist German Empire gaining massive concessions from a pro-German Russian Government, remember Russia, if we stick to this reality has gone through two bloody revolutions in a short time and is in no fit shape to fight, i included ethnic Poland as ther was no government and no nation to invade so political rammifications with its absorption into the German Empire, Ok i'll concede Polish Byelorussia as almost pointless, but Polish Ukraine had two main assets, 1. heavy industry and 2. food production, and i included the Baltic as at history would tell you is has been Germanic in Nature for hundreds of years, and strategically that would allow the German Empire to control almost the entire Southeastern Baltic Coast. cya.

[soldat_m56]

I was thinking more along the lines that Germany would control these area by proxy. The people would be more content under their own countrymen since most probably wouldn't realise that their leaders answered to German government officials. The Germans would probably play it safe. Now they might have annexed part of the Lithuanian coast north of Memel, extending a coastal strip a little farther. Otherwise, they don't need to waste the resources to out right annex these countries when they can set up loyal governments. More like the Warsaw Pact than the Third Reich.

[Roddoss72]

I was thinking more along the lines that Germany would control these area by proxy. The people would be more content under their own countrymen since most probably wouldn't realise that their leaders answered to German government officials. The Germans would probably play it safe. Now they might have annexed part of the Lithuanian coast north of Memel, extending a coastal strip a little farther. Otherwise, they don't need to waste the resources to out right annex these countries when they can set up loyal governments. More like the Warsaw Pact than the Third Reich.

The German Empire does not have to conquer the Baltic States, the Baltic States become self autonomous states within the German Empire with locals running the show, the only difference is that those in the Baltic States can serve in the Imperial German Forces, and if we include those in the Polish and Ukrainian Regions also serving in the Imperial German Forces, i have one senario of the outcome of WWI and this is this, Germany with it's new aquisitions serving in the Imperial German Forces launching an all out attack on British and French Forces in France and the low countries while Austria-Hungary concerns itself with Italy, the result i have no idea how this would pan out but it is just a thought. cya.

[soldat_m56]

I see what you're getting at. From what I understand, you said the non-Russian areas of former western Russia would be allowed to serve in the Imperial German forces to help them win WWI. Hpwever, how will they be trained in time and shipped to the Western Front before the end of the war, not to mention equipped? Remember the Americans will be coming in too. The Germans only have a limited time table they can work on here. It is a very interesting hypothesis. A fresh troop supply would be great, given the Germans were tired fighting by 1918.

[Roddoss72]

I see what you're getting at. From what I understand, you said the non-Russian areas of former western Russia would be allowed to serve in the Imperial German forces to help them win WWI. Hpwever, how will they be trained in time and shipped to the Western Front before the end of the war, not to mention equipped? Remember the Americans will be coming in too. The Germans only have a limited time table they can work on here. It is a very interesting hypothesis. A fresh troop supply would be great, given the Germans were tired fighting by 1918.

The Baltic states before they were overtaken by the Soviet Union had for their size rather quite large armies, i think at the time around 10 to 20 divisions (Yes i could be wrong on those numbers, it is just a guesstamate), and i would say to recruit and train soldiers would take no more that a month, and to form and then deploy a division takes anothe two months, the German Empire could in short time have raised an additional 50 to 75 divisions and the transferrence of the entire eastern command then we have at least (another Guessamate) a further 100 divisions to throw at the French and British, what do you think. cya.

[|AXiN|]

IIRC Estonia had 3 divisions, Latvia 4 and Lithuania 3.

[Roddoss72]

IIRC Estonia had 3 divisions, Latvia 4 and Lithuania 3.

Thanx for the information, as i said my number of divisions for the baltic states was a guesstimate of around 10 to 20 divisions, so i was essentially correct at the lower end of the spectrum for that period of time.cya.

[|AXiN|]

I'm not quite sure where your 50-75 divisions come from, but it certainly would take more than three months to adequately train, from the ground up, one hundred divisions.

[ckleisch]

The german navy was nothing but an economic drain and wastage of manpower. The attempt to break the blockade failed at the battle of Jutland. The navy wouldnt come out and fight again. They were left to sit on their ships and forment rebellion. An earlier thread asked what would cause England to stop fighting. I dont think they would. look at their politics since Napoleon. When in doubt stay back on the island, make sorties and forment rebellions in the conquering territories. The US declared war in 1917. If France fell I see a buildup in England as in the present WWII realty. So what remains to the scenario. Hm. Occcupied France, Occupied Russia in Civil War, Blockaded Europe, Submarine warfare, the collapse of the Ottomans already underway. Hey howabout that soft underbelly approach say through Italy. Arent they still in the war?

[stg 44]

the italians were on the verge of collapse after capretto and only the intervention of the western allies stabalized the front. If the germans beat france there is a large chance that the italians would bow out of the war. If not, a renewed german offensive would help them decide. When the italians are out, the land war is over and the germans are masters of the continent. The blockade is now ineffective as the germans have the french and ukrainian farmlands to draw from. There could be no invasion at this point in history as it would be wiped out much easier than overlord could have been. So a cross channel cold war would be in effect with a negotiated peace in the end. The british people were tired of war as were the other people in europe. The americans might have made things drag out for some time, but this will most likely not influence the end result.