U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

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JTG
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#121

Post by JTG » 03 Sep 2008, 01:33

[quote="ohrdruf"]JTG

Aren´t you the person who sent me two abusive PM's and another one you half attempted to delete ?
>

Possibly. I certainly PMd you.


Should you now consider these as ^abusive". a term you apply rather more freely than I care to encounter generally within the Forum, let us see shether you have any factual matters to report..

Philipj
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#122

Post by Philipj » 06 Sep 2008, 15:08

Please continue with the narrative... Thank you.


moulindeau
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#123

Post by moulindeau » 17 Sep 2008, 21:28

I don't know if this site was mentioned in connection with the meeting between
the U 234 and the I-52, but the I-52 has supposedly been found.

http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/I-52-Japa ... marin.html (note the "dropped e").

I am curious about the repeated references to a stopover in the
Cape Verde Islands when the Canaries had, apparently, a well
established clandestine U-Boat facility at Fuerteventura.

Where was the Cape Verde stop-over supposed to have been?

muttim
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#124

Post by muttim » 23 Aug 2010, 20:55

ohrdruf wrote:In response to a request from "mty" in another thread for further information on the captioned subject I would provide the following:


---Three former "Admiral Graf Spee" crew members, Alfred Schultz, Walter Dettelmann and Willi Brennecke gave sworn depositions to CEANA (Congressional Committee for the Investigation of Nazi Activities in Argentina) that "between 23 and 29 July 1945 they assisted at the unloading of passengers and cargo from two German U-boats on the Argentine coast."

---The stenographic record of their evidence seems to have been lost, but a synopsis of it appears in the CEANA Chronicle confirming its existence.


---Ronald Newton was a member of the CEANA Investigation and produced material in his book "El Cuarto Lado del Triangulo" (BsAs 1996) to the effect that "following a denunciation at Necochea at 1800 hr on 27 July 1945, a search was made of the beaches and a man of German origin who admitted signalling by lamp to a U-boat offshore, which was preparing to disembark, was arrested by a patrol.
Newton continued: "At first light on 28 July 1945 a search was made along the coast either side of Necochea and at midday, about 15 kms towards Mar del Plata, evidence was found of launches and rubber dinghies having been hauled up the sands, the impressions of heavy crates and boxes being off-loaded at an assembly point where there were tyre-tracks of several lorries. The tyre tracks were followed to the gates of a large Lahusen* farm set back from the beach and screened by much vegetation.


---(* The Lahusen organisation had been run by a family from Bremen since at least the turn of the century. It was operated from seven floors of offices in the centre of Buenos Aires, owned 100,000 hectares of land in Patagonia and adjacent regions, had a store in nearly every village and employed staff numbering tens of thousands. Although alleged to be the operational centre for all Nazi espionage activity in Argentina, the Commission of Enquiry into Enemy Property created by the Argentine Government following the declaration of war in early 1945 decided not to investigate the company.)


---Newton's report continues: "The police patrol entered the driveway of the estate and drove for two kilometres before being stopped and violently ejected by four Germans armed with sub machine-guns. Upon receiving the report, the Provincial Chief of Police at La Plata ordered the Necochea officers to abandon their enquiry.


---Alain Pujol was a member of the French Deuxieme Bureau who made an exhaustive study into Nazi assets overseas. His investigation included interrogations of the three "Admiral Graf Spee" crewmen mentioned above. He reported that numerous cases bearing the stencil "Geheime Reichssache" were shipped by Ernst Kaltenbrunner from Schleswig Holstein to a Lahusen ranch at San Clemente del Tuyu (on coast NE of Mar del Plata). They were brought there in five lorries owned by a potato farmer at Balcarce (50 kms inland from Mar del Plata). These five lorries had assisted at the unloading of two U-boats on the Argentine coast during the night of 28 July 1945. Pujol stated that in his opinion the cargo was "the treasure of the RSHA" valued at one thousand million dollars.


---The two U-boats sailed from Kiel in April 1945 together with U 977. Newly declassified Argentine and Brazilian archive material presents a different picture from the accredited official historical record. I will post this if so requested.

He leido todos tus posts y me parecen geniales, he estado investigando bastante sobre el tema y consumiendo muchos libros y artículos. Me gustaría me envies un mail para intercambiar info , saludos

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#125

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 25 Aug 2010, 01:26

muttim wrote:

He leido todos tus posts y me parecen geniales, he estado investigando bastante sobre el tema y consumiendo muchos libros y artículos. Me gustaría me envies un mail para intercambiar info , saludos
Translation?
muttim wrote:I have read all your posts and I look great, I have been researching a lot about the subject and consuming many books and articles. I would like to send me an email to exchange info, greetings

muttim
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#126

Post by muttim » 29 Oct 2010, 15:45

If you want to know which are the U-boats sunk in San Matías Gulf read this blog article.

www.u-boatargentina.blogspot.com

DarkSock
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#127

Post by DarkSock » 07 Nov 2010, 23:44

One definitive account of the event involving U-Boats along the Argentine coast lies within a section of an obscure copy of an alleged diary of Lieutenant of Frigate Rodolfo Brave Sáenz. However since mention in this tome was also made of witnessing Argentinian Brigadier General Carlos F. Mauriño "peeing in a horse once" it has largely been discredited by both serious historians and large animal veterinarians. However, like the myth of Hitler and his "gold" being ferried to Argentina by said U-Boats, the debate has persisted since the tome's discovery in 1955. Ironically it was found in the rafters of a horse barn on the Sáenz estate.

David Thompson
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#128

Post by David Thompson » 27 Jul 2011, 02:44

A post from projectgreywolf, duplicating one already posted at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=179706, was removed by this moderator pursuant to our policy disfavoring redundant posts.

ohrdruf
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#129

Post by ohrdruf » 10 Aug 2011, 16:31

U-977

The Argentine Naval Archive and Defence Ministry have recently released a few files respecting U 977. From the photographs now available it is clear that this U-boat arrived in Argentina with an enormous load of unspecified electrical equipment and advanced telecommunications aerials. One of these filled the upper gun platform. Its purpose remains unknown.

The Argentine Navy at the time observed that "they could not understand why a U-boat from a training flotilla, the commander's purpose being to get a better deal for his crew upon surrendering, should bring down so much advanced technical equipment to Argentina, or how it was used on the way." The turret and gun platforms were dismantled at Mar del Plata, and the boat, after being emptied of its cargo, was then partially rebuilt before sailing under US Navy control.

It is not my purpose to re-open the old arguments on this U-boat site, but I am preparing a posting containing a brief description of the new material and where it can be seen.

If the crew of U 977 lied for all these years about what was aboard U 977 and how it got to Argentina, we have the clearest possible indication of how strong is the gagging-rule exercised on them in modern democratic Germany to prevent them speaking out.

I would also like to add that a new book has been published by Sharkhunters and available through the Internet. This is Michael Ivinheim's "The Secret Alliance -The German Naval Presence in Argentine Waters from 1908"- (200 pages, US$25. This book provides the best and only overall view of the Argentine angle. In it, Ivinheim gives the real reason for the close cooperation between Germany and Argentina in the Second World War and subsequently. It dates back to 1908, and is a matter over which the British and Argentine Governments have agreed to draw a veil in diplomatic declarations regarding the current problems of the area, which is why nobody ever knew about it until now.

paulspice
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#130

Post by paulspice » 07 Dec 2021, 06:31

So many well-researched and diligent historians, each with their own story, whatever happened in the final days of the Third Reich will now, after so many years, remain shrouded in mystery. Trying to find the truth, is, as Barbara W. Tuchman said, trying to see what happened "in a distant mirror". Thanks to everyone for their valuable contribution.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#131

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Dec 2021, 15:04

Hi paulspice,

Nope. There are very few, if any, "well-researched and diligent historians" producing these conspiracy theories, if any! Almost none of them have made a "valuable contribution" to the historical record. All accept very low standards of evidence that disqualify them from being true "historians", some are dishonest and others are deluded. This thread contains examples of at least two of the three! For example, look closely at Ohdruf's posts. In this forum we are meant to give traceable sources. Could you trace a single one of Ohdruf's claims back to a verifiable primary source?

By and large it is not true that "whatever happened in the final days of the Third Reich..... remains shrouded in mystery", including the subject of this thread. There are some loose ends, but nothing of obvious substance.

Cheers,

Sid.

PunctuationHorror
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#132

Post by PunctuationHorror » 07 Dec 2021, 17:03

I'd be cautious with such general statements. Things are shrouded. Even things that happened yesterday. Even five minutes ago.
I can't tell what my ancestors were doing on 1931-12-07 or 1841-12-07 or 1751-12-07. Or what they were thinking. I could try to reconstruct it somehow and read their diaries, journals - if they kept any. And still, I would only know what they wrote. Not what happened. If I skim newspapers, I can only learn what was on the newspaper. Doesn't mean it actually happened as described and maybe an other newspaper writer would have written a different article. Maybe I even manage to dig out another newspaper stating the opposite. What if nobody kept records and there is nothing archived? Whatever effort I would make, most (every) conclusions would be my imagination, my hypotheses. Not what actually happened. I do not have access to that. Never will.

History is always a fantasy story made up by someone who came later.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#133

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Dec 2021, 09:00

Hi PunctuationHorror,

Of course the past is shrouded. That is the whole point of historical research - to clear away some of the "shroud" and learn a few lessons from it.

History is what actually happened.

We can't always establish precisely what happened, but that doesn't mean that every off-the-wall alternative suggestion lacking substantive evidence (as here) has equal validity with better founded possibilities, as you seem to imply.

Cheers,

Sid

PunctuationHorror
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#134

Post by PunctuationHorror » 10 Dec 2021, 19:34

In this thread we have some hypotheses which are not proven. That's it. No more, no less.

Could these speculations be actually true? Yes. Could they never happened and be complete nonsense? Yes. Nobody knows. Until something is found that is solid evidence. Best would be a ger. submarine or something that could only come to Argentina via ger. submarine.

The funny thing is:
If such evidence can be found, these 'better founded possibilities' of today become nonsense.

How can one unprooven hypothesis (s.th. along: 'No german sub unloaded in Argentina') be more valid or less equal than another unprooven hypothesis ( 'A german sub unloaded in Argentina') ? Both are speculations without evidence.

Yes. History is what actually happened. Sadly: Nobody has access to that. This was my point.

Example: A chemist creates a new substance in a special way without publishing it because he considers it common knowledge. Everybody does something like it. Publishing it would be ridiculous as it would be a non-news. The substance and its synthesis exist. Years later, 'historians' spend their lifes in archives, his protocols, publications, even in his lab, finding nothing and would correctly claim that they found nothing. Too bad the substance is in a vial and they can't read chemical symbols or have any clue of chemistry anyways, so they do not find these things, even if they sit in front of them. So they create a bogus myth and forge history. With best intentions. Maybe another chemist publishes the same synthesis 50 years later, writes exaggerated papers about it and gets awarded with a Nobel prize. Complete impossible? Can't happen, right?

Even small mistakes pile themselves up to mountains.
How do I know that Hannibal didn't write 'Romani ite domum' on his eye patch? How does anybody know?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

#135

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Dec 2021, 08:09

Hi PH,

There are almost literally an infinite number of possibilities in any given situation. The problem is that your methodology gives them all equal weight.

I could claim that around the corner there was a real yellow and pink spotted dinosaur in tou-tou, high heels and lipstick, pirouetting with a phaser set to stun while reciting Shakespeare in Esparanto. You would appear to give this equal weight with a claim that there was a car parked round the corner.

Could the former claim be true? Well, we know that yellow, pink, spots, dinosaurs, tou-tous, high heels, lipstick, pirouettes, Shakespeare and Esparanto exist or existed and phasers have been postulated, so, in theory, it is possible. But is it really likely? Would you really exert yourself to check round the corner to see if it were true? What if I said pink and orange stripes instead? Or reciting Tolstoy? Or wearing trainers? Or speaking Klingon?

You post, "The funny thing is: If such evidence can be found, these 'better founded possibilities of today become nonsense." There's nothing "funny" about this at all. That is precisely the mechanism by which all knowledge advances. In the light of demonstrable, new, hard evidence, opinions should be modified.

Have you discovered any demonstrable, new, hard evidence on this thread that would persuade a rational person to modify their opinion? I havent. There has, however, been some demonstrable misrepresentation of some sources on this thread, whether through wish fulfilment, ignorance or dishonesty.

The default position, in the absence of any demonstrable, new, hard evidence, remains that there were no, "U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945".

Cheers,

Sid.

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