The Mystery of U 235

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the submarine forces of the Kriegsmarine.
mikekoss@ct.metrocast.net
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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby mikekoss@ct.metrocast.net » 16 May 2012 00:41

I see from another, older post that all boats near Denmark have been discovered except U 235. Since T-17 dumped its entire ready compliment of depth charges directly on U 235 I would have to assume the boat probably didn't look much like a submarine. With bits of body parts and shreds of uniforms coming to the surface I think the pressure hull had to be completely compromised. I've seen a number lengthy and sometimes heated exchanges on other pages regarding U-235 and other boats bound for Patagonia. Tempests in a teapot sometimes. Unless someone had direct living links to the people involved they can only guess.

Mike
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 16 May 2012 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: U-235 is not correct, but U 235 (without hyphen !)

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red devil
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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby red devil » 16 May 2012 01:08

I completely agree with Mike. Conjecture and conspiracy theory is one thing; hard facts are there until proven otherwise, I say the U 235 went down at the hands of T17 as do most of the 'experts' including very accurate u boat historical sites.

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Andy H
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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby Andy H » 16 May 2012 11:19

Hi

I had read or heard somewhere that a plausible explanation for the boxes marked U 235, was that it wasn't a U-Boat designation but one for Uranium 235! I'm not suggesting that that was the contents of said marked boxes, just that it was an explanation for he box markings?

Regards

Andy H

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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby Atrevida » 16 May 2012 15:32

We can now confirm beyond doubt that "black boats" existed at the end of the war and afterwards for the transport to Argentina and elsewhere of passengers and technology. See thread "Black boats" for more information.
Last edited by Atrevida on 16 May 2012 15:38, edited 1 time in total.

Atrevida
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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby Atrevida » 16 May 2012 15:33

The coincidence of two sources (Hirschfeld in his book "Feindfahrten" in 1983 and the Argentine intelligence service in 1952 both referring to a U-boat "U 235" which was first going to Japan and then was reported by the authorities in Argentina) is too large a period in time to suspect a conspiracy theory. These are simply facts.

We can now confirm beyond doubt that "black boats" existed at the end of the war and afterwards for the transport to Argentina and elsewhere of passengers and technology. These boats were often given the running number of another U-boat in service. Undoubtedly Huisgen's Baltic training boat U 235 was lost in April 1945.

The cases seen by Hirschfeld were stencilled "U 235". From the declassified documentation released in recent years by the US archive it seems clear that these "more than fifty small, and enormously heavy cases the size of a car battery" as Wolfgang Hirschfeld described them were eighty cases of uranium powder with some degree of radiation.

However, there is confirmation from the Japanese side (scientist of Japanese nuclear project, brother of the Japanese ambassador to Germany, Oshima) that two one-tonne loads of uranium were to be sent to Japan, one tonne each in two U-boats. The second boat (which would have been U 235) was withdrawn in February 1945 (Capt. Tomonaga: "that boat is no longer going to Japan") and so the two loads were both loaded on U 234.

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LWD
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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby LWD » 16 May 2012 16:50

Atrevida wrote:We can now confirm beyond doubt that "black boats" existed at the end of the war and afterwards for the transport to Argentina and elsewhere of passengers and technology.

If you can then please do so. So far you haven't even defined what you mean by "black boats" much less produced any evidence at all.
See thread "Black boats" for more information.

Why didn't you link the thread? Perhas you didn't want people to see just how thin your "proof" was?
Here's the link by the way for those interested:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=186493
It contains supposed exerpts from an unpublished work.

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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby mescal » 16 May 2012 17:17

a U-boat "U 235" which was first going to Japan and then was reported by the authorities in Argentina


The U 235 was a typ VIIC Uboot, with an operationnal range of ~8500 nautical miles.
The distance from Trondheim to Penang being ~12,000 nm she cannot go there without stop.
Therefore, if U 235 was really intended to go to Japan, the Kriegsmarine must have had some arrangements to refuel this boat.
Which would have produced messages, logs, perhaps a ULTRA intercept or two.

Thus if you want to be credible you'll have to prove how this was supposed to be done.
Else you're starting from an unsound premise and thus everything from there is logically invalid.
Olivier

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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby Atrevida » 16 May 2012 18:54

Mescal

Mon cher ami, this thread began in 2006. It was suspected then (wrongly) that the Type VII boat U 235 used for training in the Baltic might not have been sunk in error by a German torpedo boat because the wreck could not be found. (The circumstances are now explained to our satisfaction by "mikecoss"). Because of the Argentine intelligence document, U 235 might have been falsely reported sunk by the Germans for use as a black boat to transport passengers and materials to Argentina, or so it was thought.

A "black boat" was a submarine of unknown provenance for which no document trail exists as to its origins or crew, used by the German Navy at the end of the Second World War and subsequently for clandestine missions, generally to transport passengers and materials to "friendly flag" nations, the main one of these being Argentina. It was the custom of the Germans to duplicate the running number of a commissioned U-boat in service or previously sunk.

The suspicion about "U 235 black boat", which was intended to carry materials to Japan partnering the Type XB boat U 234, and which was referred to by Captain Tomonaga in the Hirschfeld book, was that it might have been a Type XXI being transferred to Japan for modernizing their Navy. That was actually the reason why U-234 passenger Captain Tomonaga had come to Europe, to obtain for Japan the most up-to-date naval armaments.

In February 1945 when the situation for Japan began to look grave, "U 235 Type XXI black boat" was withdrawn from the Japan venture, and since the Argentine intelligence service issued a document stating that "U 235" had dropped off a passenger at Mar del Plata just after the war, and the first U 235, the Type VIIc, actually had been sunk before the war ended, it seems a fair inference that the U 235 black boat, a Type XXI, was the submarine originally intended to make the run to Japan, and had been sent down to Argentina instead.

Eh bien, I hope this explains it satisfactorily, Mescal.

***************************

LWD is one of those cases where no proof can ever change his mind. The book I have quoted in the "Black boats" thread in this sub-forum was written by Klaus Willmann in cooperation with Anton Staller and published by Rosenheimer in Germany in 2008 (I have given the ISBN number proving it was published in Germany). I don't suppose LWD can read much German and so for him "it has not been published yet", i.e. in a language he can understand.

I did not link that thread with this one (a) because it was not connected to U 235 and (b) I was merely advising that a translation of the Staller book was likely to appear in 2013 when it would be available to all English language readers. Now I have reason to believe, as we often find in these sensitive cases, that there may have been an official intervention, as a result of which the translation in the UK at least may not proceed.

Anton Staller served in the Kriegsmarine for three patrols aboard U-188, and was officially shorebound from August 1944. However, in his book he describes how on 8 April 1945 he was ordered to leave his shore post and report to a black boat in Bremen Vegesack yard. Why this should be only "thin proof", a U-boat man actually admitting in print that he sailed on a black boat, I cannot fathom. Make no mistake about it - in modern, "democratic", Angela Merkel's Germany, a veteran U-boat man faces death for himself and his family for admitting such a thing. That was the bravery of Anton Staller.
Last edited by Atrevida on 16 May 2012 19:25, edited 1 time in total.

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red devil
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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby red devil » 16 May 2012 19:22

Andy H wrote:Hi

I had read or heard somewhere that a plausible explanation for the boxes marked U 235, was that it wasn't a U-Boat designation but one for Uranium 235! I'm not suggesting that that was the contents of said marked boxes, just that it was an explanation for he box markings?

Regards

Andy H


The boxes WERE Uranium 235. An American on board the boat, said that people from the government (or so he thought) came on board, civilians, and looked at the freight. They confirmed Uranium and it was taken away in a convoy of trucks to what we now know to be Project Manahattan, but then it was just to 'new mexico'.

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LWD
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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby LWD » 16 May 2012 20:12

Atrevida wrote:.. A "black boat" was a submarine of unknown provenance for which no document trail exists as to its origins or crew, used by the German Navy at the end of the Second World War and subsequently for clandestine missions, generally to transport passengers and materials to "friendly flag" nations, the main one of these being Argentina. It was the custom of the Germans to duplicate the running number of a commissioned U-boat in service or previously sunk.

Do you have any documentation on this? Especially any that is well accepted in the historical community? The post WWII usage is especially questionable given the lack of support structures for said boats.

LWD is one of those cases where no proof can ever change his mind.

A review of my postings on this board will reveal that this assumption like many others you make is hardly correct. It just takes good solid evidence and/or logic to change my mind. You have demonstrated the ability to produce neither.

The book I have quoted in the "Black boats" thread in this sub-forum was written by Klaus Willmann in cooperation with Anton Staller and published by Rosenheimer in Germany in 2008 (I have given the ISBN number proving it was published in Germany).

Let's see we have a book with no academic reviews that I can find and only a handful of review even in German with authors that aren't credited with any other books. Then you use "peek aboo" sourcing. Not a very strong case so far that's for sure.
I will admit I skimmed the thread and saw onlly your 2013 publishing date.
I did not link that thread with this one (a) because it was not connected to U 235

If you felt the thread worth mentioning with regards to this thread then you should have linked it.
Now I have reason to believe, as we often find in these sensitive cases, that there may have been an official intervention, as a result of which the translation in the UK at least may not proceed.

That's another strike against the credibility of both the book and your case.

Anton Staller served in the Kriegsmarine for three patrols aboard U 188, and was officially shorebound from August 1944. However, in his book he describes how on 8 April 1945 he was ordered to leave his shore post and report to a black boat in Bremen Vegesack yard. Why this should be only "thin proof", a U-boat man actually admitting in print that he sailed on a black boat, I cannot fathom. Make no mistake about it - in modern, "democratic", Angela Merkel's Germany, a veteran U-boat man faces death for himself and his family for admitting such a thing. That was the bravery of Anton Staller.

Possibly. On the other hand you've used some pretty questionable sources in the past and I've seen nothing to indicate this source is significantly better.

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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby mikekoss@ct.metrocast.net » 17 May 2012 02:19

To Andy;

I heard or read somewhere that boxes marked U 235 were questioned by crew members of U 234 which carried the yellowcake destined for Japan. They thought the containers were for U 235 the submarine).
It is also my understanding the yellowcake was shuttled off from Portsmouth New Hampshire to the Manhattan Project. Quite the irony - it still was headed for Japan!
Mike
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 17 May 2012 06:26, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please write it correct U 235 - but not U-235

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red devil
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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby red devil » 17 May 2012 12:45

mikekoss@ct.metrocast.net wrote:To Andy;

I heard or read somewhere that boxes marked U 235 were questioned by crew members of U 234 which carried the yellowcake destined for Japan. They thought the containers were for U 235 the submarine).
It is also my understanding the yellowcake was shuttled off from Portsmouth New Hampshire to the Manhattan Project. Quite the irony - it still was headed for Japan!
Mike


Thats what I said above, in so many words.

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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby Oscarruben » 30 Oct 2012 03:52

I make a clarification, Mr. Camarassa is a merchant, manufacturer smoke. Its activity is profit because of the interest is in Argentina to unravel the mystery of the famous U-boat that came to this country.There are certain things, the U-Boats are identified only U-530 (Kapitan VERMOUTH) and U-977 (Kapitan SCHAEFFER) arrived in Mar del Plata in mid-1945, but other U-boat arrived and were never identified stranded on the Patagonian coast became scattered among dozens Buenos Aires, Tierra del Fuego and Punta Arenas, Chile.
In Puerto Egg, Patagonian coast, there is a U-Boote intact unidentified. The place was chosen by the Argentine Navy to build a base Navalse discovered that deep U-Boote is why desisted in its construction.
There are also traces of other U-Boats in Caleta de Los Loros-Buenos Aires. I think the Kriegsmarine had a fleet of U-Boote ghost with bringing personnel, materials and gold.
There was a U-boat Kapitan living many years in the Central Hotel in Bariloche since 1945 and was known by Mr. WOLF. Strangely this brought his wife and young daughter in a submarine, but was not identified by U-boats. Not to be confused with Herr Wolf (Hitler)
Please note that while there have been disclosed as ancient writers to Camarassa , De Napoli, Uki Goñi and others .
The Argentine intelligence Services never gave them everything and also lied.

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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby Oscarruben » 30 Oct 2012 16:43

Should note that the Armed Forces of Argentina and Germany had appreciation for getting rid of pesky writers gave credible documentation but red herrings. I say that because I was 21 years in the intelligence service and be concerned.
  The Armada Argentina had managed to revive the German Embassy in the submarine Puerto egg Germany initially agreed but then said it was not possible because they would have to explain much that is best ignored.
However in the 2nd World War the U.S. Manhattan Project but had not had the capacity to build a bomb to be transported by air. The capture of U-234 gave the U.S. all the elements needed, fuses to detonate, and uranium casing to throw in Japan.
All this can be seen on History Channell but should note that this means documentary also does not say that these items were stolen from the Germans. It implies but does not say for reasons of national security secret. Rather it is to maintain the myth that they manufactured the Atomic Bomb.
Keep in mind that the messages transmitted by the Kriegsmarine through Enigma codebreakers machines and Japanese naval Secret Code in 1945 and were no secret to the U.S..

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Re: The Mystery of U 235

Postby LWD » 30 Oct 2012 18:09

Oscarruben wrote:... However in the 2nd World War the U.S. Manhattan Project but had not had the capacity to build a bomb to be transported by air. The capture of U-234 gave the U.S. all the elements needed, fuses to detonate, and uranium casing to throw in Japan.

This is OT but reflects on your overall credibility. In the discussions on this topic we've had to date the well documented position is that you are not correct. So if you have credible evidence PLS post it, all be it in the appropriate thread. From what I've read there may have been some German Uranium in the Hiroshima bomb but it wasn't by any means the majority and there was essentially no captured material in either the Trintiy site bomb or the Nagasaki bomb or the 4th bomb.

At this point i'm also calling for sources on your other points as to date you have supplied none.


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