Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the submarine forces of the Kriegsmarine.
Rzewsky
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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by Rzewsky » 15 Jan 2018 07:31

Hello Sid! Yes, this is the story, although it is subject to doubt.
The group of authors speaks about it in the book mentioned by me above. They cite many facts that need to be rechecked.
For example, they say:
• On November 25, 1939, the German submarines U-38 and U-36 entered the base;
• from December 1939 to April 1940, the chief naval chief was the capiten zur zeye Nishlag, and from July 1940-korvetten - capiten Hausgofer (he was also the commander of the supply ship "Fenicia");
• Until December 1939 in "Basis Nord" there was a high-speed transport - a banana truck "Iller". On December 2, 1939, German supply vessels "Cordillera" and "Fenitia" arrived at the base. Behind them - the tanker-supplyer "Jan Wellem", the whaler "Sachsenwald", the meteorological vessels "Viking-5" and "Kedingen";
In this case, they do not give any documentary evidence.
The only reference to the document is a book which is devoted to the activities of Soviet counter intelligence before the Second World War.
This is a collection of documentary stories "State security is our duty." The editor is General Gurylev. I checked. The book exists.It is said that the base was built with the permission of the Soviet administration. This is literally. The construction of Nazi secret base is mentioned three times. What is doubtful, since there must be a decision of the highest Soviet government.
In my humble opinion, the facts of the entry of German ships into the bay were, but there was still no base.

Rzewsky
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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by Rzewsky » 15 Jan 2018 08:06

I found such a document in the archive.
It talks about the destruction of the enemy's submarine (Nazi?) The escort ship "Breeze".
The message is dated November 29, 1941. It follows from it. The submarine received several holes in the aft part and quickly drowned with a large trim difference to the stern.
The coordinates of the loss of the boat 68 ° 16 ' and 40 ° 39'
Among the losses of the Nazis such a boat does not appear. What could it be?
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NagaSadow
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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by NagaSadow » 15 Jan 2018 12:39

Concerning Basis Nord

I don't know all the details but the talks that lead to "Basis Nord" started on 23th September 1939 when Raeder talked with Hitler about a possible Soviet naval cooperation against the UK in the form of bases, harbors, construction of subs and auxiliary cruisers for the Kriegsmarine etc. In early October 1939 Stalin offered a base near Murmansk. In early November 1939 Raeder thanked the Soviet navy for the support of "Basis Nord". In April 1940 Stalin restricted the use of Basis Nord somewhat. In September 1940 the base had become useless and was no longer used.
Can all be found in "Die Seekriegsleitung und die Vorgeschichte des Feldzuges gegen Russland." in the files of the OKH

igorr
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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by igorr » 16 Jan 2018 04:34

Rzewsky wrote: • On November 25, 1939, the German submarines U-38 and U-36 entered the base;
U.38 at 25.11.39 unsuccesfully attacked some unknown ship in big area near Kola bay (AC88). Then til 28.11.39 sub made recoinessance this bay. She never enter any port or so called "Basis Nord".
U.36 from 30.9 til 2.12 was in Kiel.
Stop using Kovalev's fantasies.
Rzewsky wrote: • from December 1939 to April 1940, the chief naval chief was the capiten zur zeye Nishlag, and from July 1940-korvetten - capiten Hausgofer (he was also the commander of the supply ship "Fenicia");
Only known to me Nieschlag in Kriegsmarine was ingenier and become Fregattenkapitan in 1942.
Correct name of ship os PHOENICIA.

igorr
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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by igorr » 16 Jan 2018 04:42

Rzewsky wrote:I found such a document in the archive.
It talks about the destruction of the enemy's submarine (Nazi?) The escort ship "Breeze".
The message is dated November 29, 1941. It follows from it. The submarine received several holes in the aft part and quickly drowned with a large trim difference to the stern.
The coordinates of the loss of the boat 68 ° 16 ' and 40 ° 39'
Among the losses of the Nazis such a boat does not appear. What could it be?
This is secondary report about BRIZ's attack on 25.11.41. She claimed sub being sunk, but in reality u-boot was only badly damaged. This was U.578.

Rzewsky
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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by Rzewsky » 17 Jan 2018 08:18

Good afternoon, Igor!
I tried to send you a personal message, but it did not work out. Therefore, I answer here.
I do not popularize Kovalev's fantasies, as you put it, but just try to separate "the grain from the chaff". Who is Kovalev? The submariner officer, served in combat units, in the operational department, if my memory serves me well. Then he was deputy editor of the magazine. "Sea Herald" again. The author of several, albeit not indisputable books. Too much he imagined, is not it? There's not one Kovalev worked, there's a group of "authors." And if you carefully read my posts, I just still do not claim the existence of the Nazi base, but just the opposite :).
Again, according to unverified data, Kovalev was familiar with such an odious figure as the notorious D. Volkogonov, (or simply without Volko ...). So everything can be much more complicated than "fantasy".
For the information on the "Breeze" many thanks.
Sincerely, Rzewsky.

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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by Roger Day » 28 Sep 2018 08:57

A secret U-Boat base in Panama? I have heard of a secret U-Boat base at an inlet on the Cusapin Peninsula on the Atlantic side of Panama. This is from John Blashford-Snell:
"Nick Horne led the expedition that visited the 'U-boat pen'.
I recall he said that you could see how the U boat had been moved in this inlet, concealed by the Jungle. It sank some allied ships near Colon, before the US Navy got it. They had been put onto the secret base by the Indians at Cusapin, who alerted the US Embassy in Panama.
A team of US Marines went in and kept watch then radioed the Navy when they saw the U boat emerging one night. Due to the shallow water it could not dive until it got out to sea.
I hope this helps."
I understand that U 153 was active in this area and was in fact sunk off Colon. I also understand that the then President of Panama, Arnulfo Arias, was an overt fascist, and regarded by the Allies as pro-Axis.
Does anyone have any documentation or other information on this possible secret U-Boat base?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Sep 2018 12:01

Hi Roger Day,
that is all complete fantasy without a scrap of plausible evidence to support it from the German side. The same is true of similar stories from Belize, via Venezuela, to Chile.
The only substantiated resupply of U-boats from neutral territory was in Spanish waters.
Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by williamjpellas » 30 Sep 2018 07:01

Rzewsky wrote:
15 Jan 2018 08:06
I found such a document in the archive.
It talks about the destruction of the enemy's submarine (Nazi?) The escort ship "Breeze".
The message is dated November 29, 1941. It follows from it. The submarine received several holes in the aft part and quickly drowned with a large trim difference to the stern.
The coordinates of the loss of the boat 68 ° 16 ' and 40 ° 39'
Among the losses of the Nazis such a boat does not appear. What could it be?
Hi, Rzewsky!

I have long thought that Soviet military and government archives are a much-underutilized historical resource. A few Western historians---notably David Glantz and Rainer Karlsch---have gotten detailed looks at some Russian documents, but there is an enormous mountain of them that has never seen the light of day, even in Russia, since the war itself. Russian histories of the "Great Patriotic War" of course have their own weaknesses, but my point is that the Soviet perspective is nevertheless very important and is often overlooked in most books about the war that appeared in Western countries from 1945 until the end of the Cold War. Soviet paranoia and secrecy obviously had a lot to do with this, but so did scholarly sloppiness and inertia.

So, I am always glad to see original Soviet documents. In what archive did you find the document you posted? And, do you have a complete and reliable English translation?

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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by williamjpellas » 30 Sep 2018 07:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
28 Sep 2018 12:01
Hi Roger Day,
that is all complete fantasy without a scrap of plausible evidence to support it from the German side. The same is true of similar stories from Belize, via Venezuela, to Chile.
The only substantiated resupply of U-boats from neutral territory was in Spanish waters.
Cheers,

Sid.
I am not convinced of this, Sid. Germany was able to hide entire WMD black projects to the extent of keeping them out of the historical record almost entirely. This was done in part by keeping communications between the various centers of R & D limited to hand delivered "snail mail". It is only in the past ten or twenty years that any significant information about these has made it into the public realm. Angel Alcazar de Velasco, the Spanish Falangist spy, claimed he mounted at least one mission to the western coast of Mexico that landed two Japanese agents who hiked northward to try and find evidence of the Manhattan Project in the American Desert Southwest. I doubt very much that "official" Nazi or kriegsmarine documents mention this at all. If they do, I'd be willing to bet that it is in the most oblique terms and couched in language that only an insider or---perhaps---an exceptionally thorough historian would be able to recognize.

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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Sep 2018 12:54

Hi Williamjpellas,

Like I said, that is all complete fantasy.

The reason why almost all of these stories were "kept out of the historical record almost entirely" is because there is almost no hard evidence of any of them, as there is almost no truth in any of them.

They are usually perpetuated by fantasists, (not "exceptionally thorough historians", who generally know better) and the nether regions of the publishing industry in the hope of getting book sales and consequent slots as "experts" on minority TV channels that are not to fussy in their efforts to get viewers for what are often laughingly described as "historical documentaries".

As regards , "I doubt very much that "official" Nazi or Kriegsmarine documents mention this at all......", the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Angel Alcazar de Velasco wouldn't be the same guy described as a "paranormal investigator" and by the Japanese as little more than a liar, in one internet biography, would he? If so, he would seem to be a prime candidate for the title of "fantasist".

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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by igorr » 01 Oct 2018 03:04

williamjpellas wrote:
30 Sep 2018 07:01
but there is an enormous mountain of them that has never seen the light of day, even in Russia, since the war itself.
Situation is very much changed novadays. Large portions of archives was made online at "OBD Memorial", "Pamyat naroda", "Podvig naroda". Which western archive can do like that?
Many facts about soviet activity during WWII was researched in 1940-80, but marked as "secret". Most of them became available from 1991.
Case with BREEZE is good example of using soviet data with pure claim with cross to german documents. We have claim, then look in german docs and find what boat was damaged in that day, that place.

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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by williamjpellas » 01 Oct 2018 05:29

Sid Guttridge wrote:
30 Sep 2018 12:54
Hi Williamjpellas,

Like I said, that is all complete fantasy.

The reason why almost all of these stories were "kept out of the historical record almost entirely" is because there is almost no hard evidence of any of them, as there is almost no truth in any of them.

They are usually perpetuated by fantasists, (not "exceptionally thorough historians", who generally know better) and the nether regions of the publishing industry in the hope of getting book sales and consequent slots as "experts" on minority TV channels that are not to fussy in their efforts to get viewers for what are often laughingly described as "historical documentaries".

As regards , "I doubt very much that "official" Nazi or Kriegsmarine documents mention this at all......", the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Angel Alcazar de Velasco wouldn't be the same guy described as a "paranormal investigator" and by the Japanese as little more than a liar, in one internet biography, would he? If so, he would seem to be a prime candidate for the title of "fantasist".

I will never, ever understand the snark that gets thrown at de Velasco on this site. He was highly regarded by both Ladislas Farago---himself a wartime spy and the author of the postwar classic Game of Foxes---and Robert Wilcox. Wilcox interviewed de Velasco extensively for his book, Japan's Secret War. De Velasco of course made some interesting claims, including that he personally helped Martin Bormann escape via U-boat from Nazi Germany's gotterdamerung. If you believe him, he traveled on the U-boat with Bormann to Argentina.

https://www.amazon.com/Game-Foxes-Intel ... B001NB9E5C

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/07/opin ... 49491.html

I don't know what "internet biography", quote-unquote, would describe de Velasco as a "paranormal investigator". As for Japan saying that he was "little more than a liar", I can well believe that, since Japan for the most part wants to deny it was not only trying to build its own atomic bombs in WWII, but also working with the Germans and de Velasco on determined espionage whose goal was the penetration of the Manhattan Project. There is an extensive and to this day only partially declassified WWII FBI file describing an extensive spy ring run by the Spanish in conjunction with the Japanese. I am fairly certain that de Velasco was heavily involved in that effort. Thus Japan's attempt to distance itself from him and disavow him and his activities. They tried the same tactic when Wilcox went to Japan and tried to interview a number of their Second World War nuclear scientists.

As for the German superweapon black projects, considerable documentation exists and much has come to light over the past 20 years in particular. That is outside the scope of this particular thread but I have written extensively about it, both on this site and elsewhere.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 01 Oct 2018 14:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by williamjpellas » 01 Oct 2018 05:35

igorr wrote:
01 Oct 2018 03:04
williamjpellas wrote:
30 Sep 2018 07:01
but there is an enormous mountain of them that has never seen the light of day, even in Russia, since the war itself.
Situation is very much changed novadays. Large portions of archives was made online at "OBD Memorial", "Pamyat naroda", "Podvig naroda". Which western archive can do like that?
Many facts about soviet activity during WWII was researched in 1940-80, but marked as "secret". Most of them became available from 1991.
Case with BREEZE is good example of using soviet data with pure claim with cross to german documents. We have claim, then look in german docs and find what boat was damaged in that day, that place.
igorr, NARA---the US National Archives and Records Administration---also has considerable portions of its enormous inventory of documents and papers available online. It is a gigantic and ongoing task to digitize and upload everything in American archives to the internet, and I doubt very much that it will be completed in our lifetimes. A personal visit with a digital camera and a notebook is still the best way to do research there.

Do you know if any of those sites you mentioned have a translation program that can convert Soviet-Russian documents to English? And do you have any links?

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Re: Secret U-Boat Bases in Mexico, Spain and Elsewhere?

Post by Ironmachine » 01 Oct 2018 07:37

williamjpellas wrote:I don't know what "internet biography", quote-unquote, would describe de Velasco as a "paranormal investigator".
His wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81nge ... er_the_war
though the entry in the Spanish wiki does not include that word. I don't think he was really a "paranormal investigator" (whatever that is :lol:), the description being probably related to his claims that the flying saucers really exist, but they are not alien spaceships but products of German technology in WWII, later further developed by the U.S.A. and the Soviet Union. :roll:
Anyway, if he was highly regarded by Ladislas Farago and Robert Wilcox, MI-5 agent Thomas Harris apparently had a very different opinion:
“Un funcionario falangista de alto rango, germanófilo fanático, a la vez deshonesto e inculto. Le resultó más fácil inventar sus informes que molestarse en buscar información auténtica”
https://antoniocdelaserna.wordpress.com ... e-opereta/
In my opinion, his stories are nor worth the paper they are written on.
And even if his tale of the mission to Mexico is true, he does not talk about a secret U-boat base, just about one submarine operating close to the coast, quite a different beast. And by the way, why would a japanese mission to the western coast of Mexico be mentioned in "official Nazi or kriegsmarine documents"? (I'm quite sure there is no mention of it in Japanese documents either, anyway).

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