Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

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Montgomery
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Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 08 Jun 2018 01:48

Dönitz in 1940 demanded 300 U boat to end the war by winning the wat in Atlantic and Starven Britain by cutting all supply through Atalntic ocean and other ways.

Did he got what he asked for!!!!

In one of the most good reference about U boat way - 7th U-Boat Flotilla - Angus Konstam & Jak Mallman Showell
page 36
They mentioned " by Summer 1941 Dönitz has 184 U-Boat and he number keep rising till 250 by 1-December 1941"
They also added
maximum 2/3 of these U-boats were operational and the rest are either non operational or in maintenance
- I said and in 1942 the rate of U-Boat destroyed was more than 1941 and in 1943 was even more than 1942!!
So according to his words Dönitz will not be able to win the war in Atlantic by all means!!!!!

Does anybody has another source for that ! or better statistics


Cheers

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 08 Jun 2018 03:30

Hughes & Costello 'The Battle of the Atlantic' take a long look at this. Submarine and cargo ship sinking are mapped out for each calendar quarter & summaries for subs and cargo ships sunk vs built are given for quarterly periods.

John Ellis 'Brute Force' has a series of charts that illustrate the loss/built ratios for subs and cargo ships.

Paul Lakowski
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Paul Lakowski » 08 Jun 2018 06:06

pp-132 has chart of U-Boat operation & losses.

https://www.ajol.info/index.php/smsajms ... 281/140858

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 08 Jun 2018 11:21

Paul Lakowski wrote:pp-132 has chart of U-Boat operation & losses.

https://www.ajol.info/index.php/smsajms ... 281/140858
Thanks Paul for the link.
From your link seems like during glorious time of German U-Boat hunting 1940-1941 Dönitz never had more than 88 operational boats !!
He demanded in 1940 300 U-Boats from Hitler to fully blockade Britain and force Great Britain to surrender- German industry was mainly directed for building battle ships - it was too late to switch build only U-Boat! this is another fatal mistake in strategy. :thumbsup:

Sounds like Donitz was right!! He could have achieved his goal if German industry delivered the 300 boats by middle/end of 1940!

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 08 Jun 2018 12:38

Hi Montgomery
Did you saw this excellent website?:
https://uboat.net/
And here is a link to the combat strenght of the U-Boats:
https://uboat.net/ops/combat_strength.html
Sorry for my poor englis but' it's not my native language
Kindly regards
Prosper :wink: :wink:

ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 08 Jun 2018 12:40

Doenitz was wrong :
more UBoats does not mean more sinkings : there were more UBoats in 1941 than in 1940, but less sinkings .

January 1942 : 249 UBoats of which 158 for training and 91 front-line boats, of which only 22 were patrolling .

March 1943 : 400 !!! UBoats ,of which 178 for training and 222 front-line boats and only 70 on combat patrol. And they were defeated .

To have 300 operational UBoats, much more than 400 UBoats would be needed ,and MUCH more crews : a UBoat without crew is useless ,and ,as it took a year to build /make operational a UBoat,300 operational UBoats was an illusion .Besides, there were only a few firms that could build UBoats,thus it is not so that the construction of surface vessels was an obstacle to the construction of UBoats .

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Polar bear
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Polar bear » 10 Jun 2018 09:40

hi,
Montgomery wrote: He demanded in 1940 300 U-Boats from Hitler to fully blockade Britain and force Great Britain to surrender- German industry was mainly directed for building battle ships - it was too late to switch build only U-Boat! this is another fatal mistake in strategy. :thumbsup:
I disagree.
The German industry in 1940 was NOT "mainly directed for building battle ships", it was quite busy building tanks, guns and cars for the army and aircraft for the Luftwaffe, Admiral Raeder had to fight for a materiel (steel) proportion to be able to build ships for the Kriegsmarine.
And in 1940, the construction of u-boats HAD got a higher priority.

Montgomery wrote: it was too late to switch build only U-Boat! this is another fatal mistake in strategy. :thumbsup:
Sounds like Donitz was right!! He could have achieved his goal if German industry delivered the 300 boats by middle/end of 1940!
Again, I disagree.
If (!) the construction of ships for the Kriegsmarine had centered solely on submarines, the building strategy of Great Britain could have been changed to give ASW = Anti Submarine Warfare a higher priority , i.e. building more destroyers, sloops and corvettes instead of battleships.

greetings, the pb
Peace hath her victories no less renowned than War
(John Milton, the poet, in a letter to the Lord General Cromwell, May 1652)

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 10 Jun 2018 13:45

Prosper Vandenbroucke wrote:Hi Montgomery
Did you saw this excellent website?:
https://uboat.net/
And here is a link to the combat strenght of the U-Boats:
https://uboat.net/ops/combat_strength.html
Sorry for my poor englis but' it's not my native language
Kindly regards
Prosper :wink: :wink:
Yes Great Site and more comprehensive and trusted

Thanks

Paul Lakowski
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Paul Lakowski » 11 Jun 2018 04:24

In Koop and Schmolke books on the KM, they state that a 1957 research paper was written by WW-II KM engineers actually involved in ship design and construction. In this paper they reported that instead of building the 4 BB & 5 CA the KM had the funding/resources and shipyards to have instead built either 21 PBS or 375 Type VII U-Boats.

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Montgomery
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Montgomery » 17 Jun 2018 21:20

User ljadw » Your assumption is not valid here !!
It is not correct to say more boats doesn’t mean more losses!! There are many factors for the volume of losses! Number of boats is just one of them! But you can fairly say the formula is not linear between number of U-Boats and amount of allied losses.

In 1942 the number of U-Boats had been substantially increased, and the allied losses has reached maximum!!!
Comparing losses in 1940 and 1941 are almost the same although Number of boats increased can be explained
Accordingly, because the number of boats in 1941 still severely insufficient and the allied ASW had been substantially improved/increased – so maintaining the volume of losses is somehow success!
But it is true also in 1942 U-Boat heavily increased the losses in allied! Almost doubled !!! and this is because the number of boats is substantially increased.
Dontez in The world at war interview complained that in early years 1940-1941 he made many attempts and demands to dedicate all KM resources/industry/crew to U-Boats warfare! and he even mentioned that Admiral Raider supporting him !! but it was High Command - didn't pay attention to that.

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ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 18 Jun 2018 09:46

1 More U Boats does not mean more operational U Boats ; almost all of the 57 UBoats in September 1939 were operational, but if there were 300 UBoats , the number of the Dönitz apologists, the number of 57 would not be reached .
2 More operational U Boats does not mean more sinkings of MV, it can mean the opposite : more U Boat losses .There were more operational U Boats in 1944 than in 1939, but the MV losses were only a third of those in 1939 .That there were more MV losses in 1942 than in 1941 is a fact, bi=ut it can be explained by the fact that , due to the US entry in the war, there were more targets .
3 The explanations of Dönitz are only the usual excuses of a defeated commander,who was blaming other people for his failure and his mistakes .The OKW was right, Dönitz was wrong :more resources for the U Boats would not have given any result,besides, he got more resources : what he needed was time, and no one could give hime more time : it took a year before a U Boat was ready .
The OKW was right :
only a few firms could build submarines, thus it was not necessary to give them more resources .
the U Boat war could not decide the outcome of the war , not even in the long term, as the Allies could always build more MV than they lost,as the influence of losses of MV on British imports was meaningless ,as Britain could easily absorp decreasing imports and as the number of sinkings was not related to the number of patrolling submarines .
Dönitz' failure was caused by the Allied superiority and by his mistakes,something he tried to hide after the war by blaming his dead superiors .

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Polar bear
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Polar bear » 04 Jul 2018 09:58

hi,

a very decided and strong opinion with a few points where I disagree :
ljadw wrote: More operational U Boats does not mean more sinkings of MV,
...and as the number of sinkings was not related to the number of patrolling submarines .
A higher number of operational boats allowed additional operations in other areas as off South Africa, the Caribbean and the Indian Ocean where submarines were able to operate more freely. It allowed, as well, a tighter net in the NA, ... both resulting in more sinkings
ljadw wrote: as the Allies could always build more MV than they lost,
That is true only after December, 1941, with the immense and undisturbed shipbuilding industry of the US
ljadw wrote: as the influence of losses of MV on British imports was meaningless ,as Britain could easily absorp decreasing imports
Then why was there a rationing of petrol ? IMO, the losses of tankers did have an effect.

greetings, the pb
Peace hath her victories no less renowned than War
(John Milton, the poet, in a letter to the Lord General Cromwell, May 1652)

ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2018 11:59

Polar bear wrote:hi,

a very decided and strong opinion with a few points where I disagree :
ljadw wrote: More operational U Boats does not mean more sinkings of MV,
...and as the number of sinkings was not related to the number of patrolling submarines .
A higher number of operational boats allowed additional operations in other areas as off South Africa, the Caribbean and the Indian Ocean where submarines were able to operate more freely. It allowed, as well, a tighter net in the NA, ... both resulting in more sinkings
ljadw wrote: as the Allies could always build more MV than they lost,
That is true only after December, 1941, with the immense and undisturbed shipbuilding industry of the US
ljadw wrote: as the influence of losses of MV on British imports was meaningless ,as Britain could easily absorp decreasing imports
Then why was there a rationing of petrol ? IMO, the losses of tankers did have an effect.

greetings, the pb
About point 1 (more operational UBoats result in more sinkings ): there were more operational U Boats in 1944 than in 1939, but less sinkings in 1944 than in 1939 : it was perfectly possible to have more sinkings with less submarines, as the number of operational U Boats was only one (and IMO subordinate ) of the factors who determined the sinkings .
About point 2 (shipping production ) at the end of 1941,Britain had more GRT available than in september 1939 .
About point 3 (relation between losses and imports ):rationing of petrol started at the outbreak of the war (as in the US 0 before even one tanker was lost .
What was determining the imports ?
1 The needs : example : British Iron and Steel imports :they were going down while the sinkings were also going down;from 8,2 million ton in 1940 , when the sinkings were 10 million + to 3,7 million in 1944 when the sinkings were 600000 ton .
2 The availability of the raw materials that needed to be imported: why was British munition import going up with 300 % between 1940 and 1944(from 800000 to 2,4 million ton )? Because between 1940 and 1944 more munition was produced .

3 And last : the number of transport means that were available ( not only ships ): the U Boats could only attack some, not all, MV, and not trucks/trains .Additional point : not all MV were used for imports,that's why Drumbeat was meaningless : the MV/tankers lost because of Drumbeat were replaced by pipeline/train and the imports continued, as the MV that were lost because of Drumbeat were not crossing the Atlantic : there is no proof that without Drumbeat Britain would have more imports .There were in 1942 some 5 million ton of ferrous metal and only 4,4 million ton in 1944 .Drumbeat hurted especially the US , for which it was only a pinprick, but it did not hurt Britain .That's why it was a big mistake : the UBoat commanders were searching for the RK, and they knew that they could have it by sinking GRT.Reality was that 1000 GRT lost at the eastern coast of the US was hurting Britain much less than 1000 GRT lost in the Atlantic or 500 GRT before Liverpool .

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Polar bear
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by Polar bear » 04 Jul 2018 13:04

hi,

much of what you said about British shipbuilding capacity and imports is contradicted here https://history.army.mil/books/70-7_08.htm

I'd like to see your arguments furthered by real data, e.g. the loss/win rate of british merchant tonnage (#2)

greetings, the pb
Peace hath her victories no less renowned than War
(John Milton, the poet, in a letter to the Lord General Cromwell, May 1652)

ljadw
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Re: Maximum Number of Operational U Boat

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2018 18:45

Polar bear wrote:hi,

much of what you said about British shipbuilding capacity and imports is contradicted here https://history.army.mil/books/70-7_08.htm

I'd like to see your arguments furthered by real data, e.g. the loss/win rate of british merchant tonnage (#2)

greetings, the pb
My source about British imports is "German submarine blockade, overseas imports,and British militry production in WWII (By Erin Weir );on P 8 Table I , he gives the following figures for British Dry-cargo imports (without oil )
1940 : 41,9 million GRT
1941 : 30,5
1942 : 22,9
1943 : 26,4
1944 : 25,1

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