U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945
Hello
Nothing creates myths like the lost subs escaping to south america. Books have been written, most fictional, those that are said to be "true" cant come up with hard facts.
The story about these subs have been around for years, so far its only generated money to divers and explorers that have had a great time.
In the tread its mentioned norwegian sources, if its the same we have heard about in Norway, its just hearsay, and nothing you can rely on.
Could you add the valuable info provided by the norwegians ?
This topic has also been discussed on several forums over the years, and NONE!!! have ever presented anything new. Some years ago there was even a picture of one of the subs in a argentinian newspaper, it was only a shadow on the riverbed.
I must admit its entertaining to read, but it had been real interesting if it had been backed up by facts.
regards
stril
Nothing creates myths like the lost subs escaping to south america. Books have been written, most fictional, those that are said to be "true" cant come up with hard facts.
The story about these subs have been around for years, so far its only generated money to divers and explorers that have had a great time.
In the tread its mentioned norwegian sources, if its the same we have heard about in Norway, its just hearsay, and nothing you can rely on.
Could you add the valuable info provided by the norwegians ?
This topic has also been discussed on several forums over the years, and NONE!!! have ever presented anything new. Some years ago there was even a picture of one of the subs in a argentinian newspaper, it was only a shadow on the riverbed.
I must admit its entertaining to read, but it had been real interesting if it had been backed up by facts.
regards
stril
Iltis
Thank you for your four messages. If you consult my initiating article you will see the references for declassified material. I have mentioned elsewhere the need for researchers to present themselves in person to the various Argentine authorities to obtain copies. This thread is based on documentary material available in the Argentine naval, police and intelligence service archives and is not in my imagination. Where it is based on oral sources and therefore unreliable I have stated so. Iltis, you do not quote your full source for the various uncommissioned U-boats to which you refer.
I would ask you for two explanations. What is the difference between the term "stillgelegt" and "Bau eingestellt"? When did the information you quote first became available to researchers in Europe, and from what source?
What you are missing is the fact that what was carried aboard these U-boats was CARGO. In the early months of 1945, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay all signed a document engineered by the Allies, probably by financial inducement, that they would mobilize and cooperate and provide all means necessary to the common global objective of destroying National Socialism. The total contribution of all three in the naval arena was the eight depth charges dropped on U-977 on 18 July 1945. Meanwhile arrangements were being made with Germany their supposed enemy to accept any war criminal, the wealth of the Third Reich, land purchase money-laundering arrangements and to allow certain advanced technologies to be pursued inland, and there is no doubt whatever that this occurred. The wealth and the technological transfer could only have been achieved by sea.
What was required of the three U-boat crews was silence. I would consider it a pretty fair bet that those about whom the slightest doubt existed would have been silenced permanently. As with fugitive war criminals in Argentina, families were allowed to follow as immigrants after a suitable period had passed, this was handled by the Red Cross network.
I do not say that Horst Bredow was a member of the NSDAP. The controlling organisation in Germany is Stahlhelm.
STRIL
I note the point you make about the various abortive activities undertaken by the Argentine Navy and which are mentioned earlier. But the point is surely that, contrary to Iltis and yourself, who are not in possession of the State papers, the Argentine Navy has reason to believe that U-boats did come to Argentine shores postwar.
Thank you for your four messages. If you consult my initiating article you will see the references for declassified material. I have mentioned elsewhere the need for researchers to present themselves in person to the various Argentine authorities to obtain copies. This thread is based on documentary material available in the Argentine naval, police and intelligence service archives and is not in my imagination. Where it is based on oral sources and therefore unreliable I have stated so. Iltis, you do not quote your full source for the various uncommissioned U-boats to which you refer.
I would ask you for two explanations. What is the difference between the term "stillgelegt" and "Bau eingestellt"? When did the information you quote first became available to researchers in Europe, and from what source?
What you are missing is the fact that what was carried aboard these U-boats was CARGO. In the early months of 1945, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay all signed a document engineered by the Allies, probably by financial inducement, that they would mobilize and cooperate and provide all means necessary to the common global objective of destroying National Socialism. The total contribution of all three in the naval arena was the eight depth charges dropped on U-977 on 18 July 1945. Meanwhile arrangements were being made with Germany their supposed enemy to accept any war criminal, the wealth of the Third Reich, land purchase money-laundering arrangements and to allow certain advanced technologies to be pursued inland, and there is no doubt whatever that this occurred. The wealth and the technological transfer could only have been achieved by sea.
What was required of the three U-boat crews was silence. I would consider it a pretty fair bet that those about whom the slightest doubt existed would have been silenced permanently. As with fugitive war criminals in Argentina, families were allowed to follow as immigrants after a suitable period had passed, this was handled by the Red Cross network.
I do not say that Horst Bredow was a member of the NSDAP. The controlling organisation in Germany is Stahlhelm.
STRIL
I note the point you make about the various abortive activities undertaken by the Argentine Navy and which are mentioned earlier. But the point is surely that, contrary to Iltis and yourself, who are not in possession of the State papers, the Argentine Navy has reason to believe that U-boats did come to Argentine shores postwar.
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Working for the Argentine Navy?
Gentlemen,
I wonder if plenty of crew from these U-boats joined the Argentine Navy and worked as military advisors? I know that plenty of Luftwaffe personnal served as advisors for the Argentine Air Force. Same thing for the Heer personnal as advisors for the Argentine Army.
I wonder if plenty of crew from these U-boats joined the Argentine Navy and worked as military advisors? I know that plenty of Luftwaffe personnal served as advisors for the Argentine Air Force. Same thing for the Heer personnal as advisors for the Argentine Army.
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Working for the Argentine Navy?
Gentlemen,
I wonder if plenty of crew from these U-boats joined the Argentine Navy and worked as military advisors? I know that plenty of Luftwaffe personnal served as advisors for the Argentine Air Force. Same thing for the Heer personnal as advisors for the Argentine Army.
I wonder if plenty of crew from these U-boats joined the Argentine Navy and worked as military advisors? I know that plenty of Luftwaffe personnal served as advisors for the Argentine Air Force. Same thing for the Heer personnal as advisors for the Argentine Army.
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I hesitate to write this because Ohrdruf seems such an enthusiastic and nice contributor - but regrettably delving in Phantasmagoria of 'black' (that is - never recorded U-boats) unloading nazis and their riches in Argentina. But also nazi 'Ghost UFOs' overflying Sweden in 1944/45 in another thread. Sorry Ohrdruf - but your writings have nothing to do with Axis HISTORY - they remain PHantasmagoria.
A few years ago this issue was subject of study of "Telenoche Investiga" a news program dedicated to special investigations.
They arrive to the conclusion that, the sunk submarines existed. They presented as proofs testimonies of locals, you only have the word of witnesses, and realtives, to believe in. But they showed something very interesting, in two different places parts of the u-botes fuel tanks, I remenber specialy one, a piece of rusted can with the swastika on it. The program ended that way.
Unfortunately I can not find the program web site to ask the journalists and to share it with you all, it was probably removed due it´s no longer on the air. I think argentinian members of the forum will remember it
Regards
Ezequiel
They arrive to the conclusion that, the sunk submarines existed. They presented as proofs testimonies of locals, you only have the word of witnesses, and realtives, to believe in. But they showed something very interesting, in two different places parts of the u-botes fuel tanks, I remenber specialy one, a piece of rusted can with the swastika on it. The program ended that way.
Unfortunately I can not find the program web site to ask the journalists and to share it with you all, it was probably removed due it´s no longer on the air. I think argentinian members of the forum will remember it
Regards
Ezequiel
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XXI U-Boats
Dear Sir,
I had a thought that perhaps some of these "black boats" which roams into the oceans may have been Type XXI U-boats. Officially, only one commissioned XXI U-Boat which was commanded by Commander Adelbert Schnee, went one a war patrol at sea. Now I'm not so sure if that was the case. There were reports of sightings of more XXI U-boats at sea and that even ships that was sunk by them. You don't have believe in my message but something that was mysterious may come true after all.
Sincerely,
Edward
I had a thought that perhaps some of these "black boats" which roams into the oceans may have been Type XXI U-boats. Officially, only one commissioned XXI U-Boat which was commanded by Commander Adelbert Schnee, went one a war patrol at sea. Now I'm not so sure if that was the case. There were reports of sightings of more XXI U-boats at sea and that even ships that was sunk by them. You don't have believe in my message but something that was mysterious may come true after all.
Sincerely,
Edward
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Iltis SS Gen Wilhelm Mohnke disappeared from Berlin after he had tried to negotiate a truce with Zuhkov. He returned to German lines under a truce flag and disappeared from history until about a decade ago when he turned up under an assumed name.I am looking at a crew list for U196 at the time that it went missing and I wonder why, if every one of the crew survived to land in South America, did none of them ever return home
What about Mengele ?
He didn't come to reunions ?
I am so surprised.
Heinz Haake of U-196 is buried at a plantation in Java along with a suggestion that U-196 sank. Interesting that this man known for being anti Nazi ends up with a marked grave whilst the others are vanished ?
Whilst U-862 traversed the coast of Australia there were sightings elsewhere of another U-boat which could not have been U-862. According to allied intelligence summaries U-234 requisitioned maps of Tierra del Fuego before departure.
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/srh232.htm
Edward, SS Gen Kurt Gross was the Siecherheitsdienst (SD) General in charge of South American operations. He disappeared from Berline in January 1945 and has never been heard from since. Many of the Graf Spee crew went to Argentina during the war and were active in Abwher activities.
Frederico Schwendt who masterminded forgery of British and American banknotes ended up in Peru.Schwendt answered to Kaltenbrunner. I read somewhere here about crates worth of thousands of millions of dollars being unloaded. Given Schwendt's escape, do we know how he escaped ?
Mohnke didnt "disappear from history" my friend, he was taken prisoner by the Russians in May 1945 and held at Budkia and Lubljanka then Woikowo in 1955. On his return to Germany he lived openly in his hometown of Lubeck (sorry unlauts missing), the British tried to extradite him in the 1980's without success, he was openly listed in the telephone directory and lived out his life there.
He didnt "disappear from history".
What about Mengele ? It was known roughly where he was, he didnt get to S.America via a u-boat but followed the established route probably courtesy of Cardinal Hudal of the Vatican.
I have no clue about Haake's burial but U196 was operating in Far Eastern Waters and not in South American Waters in 1945.
I have checked the 1942 & 1944 DAL's and there is no Kurt Gross listed amongst the SS officers of General rank. There is a Standartenfuhrer Hermann Gross born 1891 who didnt apparently disappear to South America and there was an Oberfuhrer Martin Gross born 1901 who doesnt seem to feature amongst the South America gossip either.
He didnt "disappear from history".
What about Mengele ? It was known roughly where he was, he didnt get to S.America via a u-boat but followed the established route probably courtesy of Cardinal Hudal of the Vatican.
I have no clue about Haake's burial but U196 was operating in Far Eastern Waters and not in South American Waters in 1945.
I have checked the 1942 & 1944 DAL's and there is no Kurt Gross listed amongst the SS officers of General rank. There is a Standartenfuhrer Hermann Gross born 1891 who didnt apparently disappear to South America and there was an Oberfuhrer Martin Gross born 1901 who doesnt seem to feature amongst the South America gossip either.