Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

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Futurist
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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 01 Dec 2019 00:46

Sid Guttridge wrote:
30 Nov 2019 15:25
Hi wm,

It is unusual for a country to offer more territory than is demanded and equally unusual for a country to turn territory down when offered it.

Unusual claims require an unusual amount of evidence to substantiate them.

What are your sources?

Cheers,

Sid.
TBF, it's not unusual for a country to reject or even give up territory when demographic concerns are severe enough. For instance, many Israelis are arguing in favor of an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank in order to preserve Israel's Jewish character. Likewise, Charles de Gaulle argued in favor of a French withdrawal from Algeria in order to preserve France's European and Christian character. Similarly, one could support the partition of India in order to preserve India's Hindu character. Heck, some white nationalists in the US nowadays are perfectly fine seeing the US partitioned so that they could get their own white ethno-state.

Interwar Poland was only around two-thirds Polish and thus demographic issues might have very well been a real concern to their leadership. However, this doesn't explain why exactly Poland didn't take Belarus and create a nominally independent Polish puppet state out of it. This would have probably been much better for Belarusians than being put under Soviet rule was.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Dec 2019 15:01

Hi wm,

You are not addressing my question, which relates to your earlier claim that the USSR offered Poland Byelorussia in 1921 but Poland turned it down.

To repeat:

"It is unusual for a country to offer more territory than is demanded and equally unusual for a country to turn territory down when offered it.

Unusual claims require an unusual amount of evidence to substantiate them.

What are your sources?

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Dec 2019 15:17

Hi futurist,

None of your examples are equivalent.

Israel hasn't been offered the West Bank and so is in no position to turn it down.

India didn't want partition to preserve a Hindu state. It was the Moslems who wanted a separate state of their own, which became Pakistan.

France left Algeria because it, like other colonial powers, couldn't afford the expense of retaining increasingly hostile colonies (which were meant to return the mother country a profit) by force in the modern world. It was not an act of generosity but one of increasing necessity. It was a matter of jumping before they were pushed.

As for the Belarus question, wm is yet to provide any evidence in support of his claim that it was offered to Poland by the USSR. Nor have you.

I will believe anything, so long as robust evidence supports it, but it is currently lacking in this case.

I therefore feel impelled to ask you, too: What are your sources?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by wm » 02 Dec 2019 22:13

As I've said Polish negotiators: Stanisław Grabski and Jan Dąbski said that later after the peace was signed.
Usually Dąbski's book The Peace of Riga... is given as the source.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by wm » 02 Dec 2019 22:29

Futurist wrote:
01 Dec 2019 00:43
Why not take it and create a nominally independent Belarusian puppet state, though? At least that way Poland's Polish character won't be threatened.

Also, were any parts of Ukraine also offered?
No, and it wasn't openly offered - the Soviets were ready to offer more, but the Poles, motivated by internal Polish political politics, deliberately didn't exploit the opportunity (in the case of Belarus).

The reason was simple, the political parties both Grabski and Dąbski represented considered Ukraine and Belarus (independent or a part of Poland) a serious future geopolitical threat. For that reason, they wanted parts of them, the most promising from the point of view of their Polonization but not more.

And really an independent Ukraine or Belarus would fall prey to the Soviets in no time, and Poland wouldn't be able to save them.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Dec 2019 12:19

Hi wm,

OK, presuming that "it wasn't openly offered", how do you know about it?

If Dąbski's book The Peace of Riga contains it, what does it say?

Failing that, what secondary sources refer to the book in this context?

It would perhaps be important here to mention that Dabski was the chief Polish negotiator of the Peace of Riga.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 03 Dec 2019 21:35

wm wrote:
02 Dec 2019 22:29
Futurist wrote:
01 Dec 2019 00:43
Why not take it and create a nominally independent Belarusian puppet state, though? At least that way Poland's Polish character won't be threatened.

Also, were any parts of Ukraine also offered?
No, and it wasn't openly offered - the Soviets were ready to offer more, but the Poles, motivated by internal Polish political politics, deliberately didn't exploit the opportunity (in the case of Belarus).

The reason was simple, the political parties both Grabski and Dąbski represented considered Ukraine and Belarus (independent or a part of Poland) a serious future geopolitical threat. For that reason, they wanted parts of them, the most promising from the point of view of their Polonization but not more.
Why would an independent Ukraine and Belarus be a serious future geopolitical threat?
And really an independent Ukraine or Belarus would fall prey to the Soviets in no time, and Poland wouldn't be able to save them.
But would the Soviet Union actually be willing to go to war against Poland again? I mean, in real life, it was unprepared to go to war against Poland again up to the point that Nazi Germany already invaded Poland.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Helmut Schultz » 20 Dec 2019 14:25

After the signing of the Non Aggression Pact between Russia and Germany in August 1939 my Latvian father was designated a Baltic German and induced to leave and sell his properties in Riga. My family consisting of my father my mother my younger brother and I moved to Gotenhafen (German for Gdynia) in December of 1939. We lived there until the autumn of 1941 and then returned to Riga. Question—is it possible that there may be records where my family resided in Gdynia at that time. I would like to visit that city before I die (my birthday was yesterday and I am 83 now

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Georg_S » 20 Dec 2019 14:38

Hello Helmut,

There is as good chance that the record still exists. But I also would advice you to make the same request under the subform foreign Volonteers etc. There is a lot of people from Latvija and Riga. I have been there twice myself and it´s a very beatiful town.

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Georg
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- http://wennallebruderschweigen.blogspot.com/

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 29 Dec 2019 04:53

@Helmut Schultz: You can also try searching for this record on FamilySearch.org

FamilySearch contains a lot of historical documents and records--but you do need to sign up for a free account there in order to actually see the relevant documents and records. As I said, though, this process is completely free and your FamilySearch account is never actually going to cost you any money--unlike, say, an Ancestry.com account.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by henryk » 29 Dec 2019 19:42

A similar free enrolment search at myheritage.com

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 31 Dec 2019 07:49

Sid Guttridge wrote:
02 Dec 2019 15:17
Hi futurist,

None of your examples are equivalent.

Israel hasn't been offered the West Bank and so is in no position to turn it down.
It could unilaterally annex it if it so desired. There would certainly be severe consequences, but theoretically, it can be done.
India didn't want partition to preserve a Hindu state. It was the Moslems who wanted a separate state of their own, which became Pakistan.
Yes, but I'm just saying that if I was a Hindu, I would have probably supported the partition of India (but certainly not the mass killings, ethnic cleansing, or the general half-assed way that it was done) in order to preserve a Hindu majority in India.
France left Algeria because it, like other colonial powers, couldn't afford the expense of retaining increasingly hostile colonies (which were meant to return the mother country a profit) by force in the modern world. It was not an act of generosity but one of increasing necessity. It was a matter of jumping before they were pushed.
France militarily won its war in Algeria, no? It withdrew at least in part because Charles De Gaulle made statements such as this:

https://harvardpress.typepad.com/hup_pu ... aulle.html

"There was also a rather cynical side to this. The defenders of so-called French Algeria argued for what they called ‘integration’: that Algeria should be fully integrated into France and its Muslim population become fully French citizens. This was a bit hypocritical on the part of Europeans who had done all to deny rights to Algerian Muslims for decades. But de Gaulle’s objection was a pragmatic (one might even say racist) one. As he put it once to one of his Ministers: ‘Have you seen the Muslims with their turbans and their djellabas? You can see that they are not French. Try and integrate oil and vinegar. Shake the bottle. After a moment they separate again. The Arabs are Arabs; the French are French. Do you think that the French can absorb ten million Muslims who will tomorrow be twenty million and after tomorrow forty? If we carry out integration, if all the Berbers and Arabs of Algeria were regarded as French, how would one stop them coming to settle on the mainland where the standard of living is so much higher? My village would no longer be called Colombes-les-deux-Eglises but Colombey-the-two-Mosques.”"

You can also see the same comment by Charles De Gaulle here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=yBxCD ... 22&f=false

Frankly, I am in complete agreement with Charles De Gaulle in regards to this. I think that it's perfectly reasonable to want to maintain France's European character by allowing Algeria to become independent. I would have, of course, also let the harkis into France in and after 1962 but would have been much more selective with subsequent Muslim immigration into France.
As for the Belarus question, wm is yet to provide any evidence in support of his claim that it was offered to Poland by the USSR. Nor have you.

I will believe anything, so long as robust evidence supports it, but it is currently lacking in this case.

I therefore feel impelled to ask you, too: What are your sources?

Cheers,

Sid.
This book provides some information about this topic:

https://books.google.com/books?id=2T9zY ... sk&f=false

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Dec 2019 14:06

Hi Futurist,

To ignore all the diversions to get back on thread, if The Ukrainian-Polish Defensive Alliance, 1919-1921 contains information to support your point, what does it say and where?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Futurist » 31 Dec 2019 21:15

Sid Guttridge wrote:
31 Dec 2019 14:06
Hi Futurist,

To ignore all the diversions to get back on thread, if The Ukrainian-Polish Defensive Alliance, 1919-1921 contains information to support your point, what does it say and where?

Cheers,

Sid.
Pages 153 and beyond discuss the 1921 Riga peace negotiations in regards to the fate of Belarus.

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Re: Poles and Baltic countries hypothetical question

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Jan 2020 16:51

.....and the relevant quote that supports your earlier contention is......?

Sid.

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