Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Jun 2020 07:15

Hi Steve,

No, I did not say that electricity was an add-on to a house (though it literally was in the older house where I live). I was saying that electricity was an add-on to cities, which predated its harnessing by several thousand years.

Perhaps widespread atheism, rather than Christianity, is a more representative "European" trait compared with other societies?

Your Barry Cunliffe definition of western Eurasia as a peninsula of a continent, rather than as a continent in its own right, articulates my position better than I have done myself.

How can we say that the Iranians clearly don't live in "Europe" if we can't define the boundaries of "Europe" in the first place? If one defines "Europe" linguistically or ethnically, then they are probably in.

China was long stagnant in science and technology for cultural reasons. Culture adapts and developes. Western Eurasian advantage in these areas was late in coming, built initially on outside input and already may have passed.

"Europe" is an artificial construct without an agreed natural, linguistic, ethnic, religious or cultural boundary.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Jun 2020 07:20

Hi Steve,

No, I did not say that electricity was an add-on to a house (though it literally was in the older house where I live). I was saying that electricity was an add-on to cities, which predated its harnessing by several thousand years.

Perhaps widespread atheism, rather than Christianity, is a more representative "European" trait compared with other societies?

Your Barry Cunliffe definition of western Eurasia as a peninsula of a continent, rather than as a continent in its own right, articulates my position better than I have done myself.

How can we say that the Iranians clearly don't live in "Europe" if we can't define the boundaries of "Europe" in the first place? If one defines "Europe" linguistically or ethnically, then they are probably in.

China was long stagnant in science and technology for cultural reasons. Culture adapts and developes. Western Eurasian advantage in these areas was late in coming, built initially on outside input and already may have passed.

"Europe" is an artificial construct without an agreed natural, linguistic, ethnic, religious or cultural boundary.

So, if Europe extends beyond the three main language groups, which of the smaller languages I mentioned above are in or out and why? Let's concentrate on the Basques and the Hungarians. One apparently predates the arrival of "European" languages in western Eurasia and the other arrived in "Europe" little more than a thousand years ago. Are they in or out and why?

Cheers,

Sid.

Futurist
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Futurist » 01 Jul 2020 00:26

If the Hungarians are out of Europe, why would the Finns and Estonians be inside of Europe?

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Steve
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Steve » 01 Jul 2020 01:26

Sid, I am puzzled as to how on the one hand you say that “Your Barry Cunliffe definition of western Eurasia as a peninsula of a continent, rather than as a continent in its own right, articulates my position better than I have done myself”. And then say "Europe" is an artificial construct without an agreed natural, linguistic, ethnic, religious or cultural boundary”.

Cunliffe said that the peninsulas boundary ran through the Black Sea to Georgia a country which stretches most of the way from the Black Sea to the Caspian Sea. What geographical feature stretches between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea? The Caucasus Mountains which Encyclopaedia Britannica tells us is where Europe and Asia converge. I would bet that most of the world agrees with this. These mountains constitute a clear natural boundary between the Black Sea and the Caspian, short of moving the Himalayas you could not have a much better one.

Cunliffe also said that some people defined Europe’s eastern boundary as the Urals or the Volga but he thought the peninsula graded imperceptibly away. Clearly it could not do that if it met the Caucasus Mountains. Also as it graded away towards the east past the Caspian Sea I doubt that he thought it did a right turn and continued grading away imperceptibly over Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan and then Iran.

Presumably if you think that Iran is in Europe you do not agree that the Caucasus Mountains are where Europe and Asia converge. If Iran is in Europe is Central Asia which borders on Iran also in Europe? My girlfriend thinks that this is all bonkers and I am beginning to suspect she could be right.

Ps I never said a European was defined by a particular language.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jul 2020 04:38

Hi Futurist,

Yup, my earlier point.

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jul 2020 04:52

Hi Steve,

Your Cunliffe post says the following:

"Where Europe ends and Asia begins has for long been a matter of debate. For those who favour a mountain barrier the Urals have their attraction” …………… “Others though have preferred a river boundary, suggesting the Don or the Volga. There is little consensus nor need there be one; peninsulas by their very nature grade imperceptibly into continents”

My point has always been that Eurasia is a continuum, not two distinct entities.

What you quote Cunliffe as saying is entirely consistent with what I wrote; " 'Europe' is an artificial construct without an agreed natural, linguistic, ethnic, religious or cultural boundary.".

The accompanying maps, which show at least sixteen different boundary possibilities, illustrate the problem differentiating "Europe" from "Asia":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundar ... o_1900.png

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundar ... d_Asia.png

Eurasia is a continuum, not two distinct entities.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 01 Jul 2020 05:30, edited 3 times in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jul 2020 05:05

Combined with previous post.

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