The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#16

Post by henryk » 30 Dec 2019, 21:54

Futurist wrote:
30 Dec 2019, 01:23
Also, this book by Isaiah Bowman about the political and geographic aspects of the post-WWI political situation (it's about 500 pages long, I think) might be of interest to you, Peter K, and other people here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=XkwgA ... 22&f=false

For someone who wasn't an expert on Europe, he nevertheless sure appears to be very knowledgeable about Europe and the rest of the world. So, he was in all likelihood very well-read about these topics. Don't believe me? Then take a look at this book yourselves and personally judge the contents and accuracy of it!
He was not only anti-Jewish, but also anti-slav.
Page 191 from his book:
Social Democrats in the Reichstag, at last began. There came also the * nd final liberation of peoples who, by gaining independence, took away sub- of subject stantial portions of Germany, as well as the greater part of Austria and peoples Hungary. Additional losses of population were incurred through the treaty of Versailles, which included many Germans in the new states, on the ground that the colonization methods of Germany and the forced ethnic penetrations of Austria and Hungary had put the former minority populations of these countries under a handicap. They had been driven out of districts in which they had a right to live on equal terms with the German-speaking newcomers. However, this political principle should not diminish appreciation of the service rendered by many German settlers on the eastern frontier of the German lands. While each one of the three great eastward-reaching prongs of German population, shown in Figure 100, is often described as the result of a war of conquest against Turks and Slavs, these wars were in the main a part of the general process of expansion of the higher civilization of western Europe eastward against the lower oriental civilization that long threatened to overwhelm it.

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#17

Post by Futurist » 30 Dec 2019, 23:47

Oh, sure, he appears to have had a bias in favor of the West, but even with bias, one could still do a decent job discussing history, geography, and geopolitics.


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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#18

Post by Futurist » 31 Dec 2019, 09:00

I have now finished taking a look at Isaiah Bowman's book. I literally looked at every page of it. Honestly, he really does appear to do a good job describing the geopolitical and geographical situations in various countries and imperial possessions throughout the world. Frankly, finding one quote where Bowman speaks negatively about Slavs really shouldn't undermine the entirety of Bowman's book.

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#19

Post by Futurist » 09 Jan 2020, 23:46

@wm and Steve: What are your thoughts about the Inquiry's 1919 recommendations in regards to the Polish and Czechoslovak borders?

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#20

Post by Futurist » 21 Jun 2020, 22:13

henryk wrote:
30 Dec 2019, 21:47
Futurist wrote:
30 Dec 2019, 01:20
henryk wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 20:10
Futurist wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 04:37
henryk wrote:
30 May 2018, 20:27

Well, I don't think that the US had very many experts on Eastern Europe back in 1919.
So the Inquiry was flawed and their conclusion about a democratic Russia untrustworthy.

Didn't the Balts and Ukrainians themselves initially want to remain in Russia but to have more autonomy, though? I seem to recall that they only became pro-independence after the Bolshevik Revolution occurred in Russia in November 1917.
What is the basis for your statement? Facts show the contrary.
https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.n ... nd_finland
Making Sense of the War↑
Reactions to the outbreak of the war in the Baltics were very different from those in Finland. Among Baltic Germans, who feared hostilities against anything German in the Russian Empire, and among Russian Jews, expectations were pessimistic; however, particularly parts of the Russian-oriented rabbinic Litvaks publicly supported the war, hoping that a patriotic stance might help them gain legal equality.[9] In Finland, a pro-German attitude prevailed among intellectuals hoping that a defeat of Russia would significantly improve the chances of Finnish independence, while the economic elite supported Russia.[10] Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian elite groups overwhelmingly expressed solidarity with the Tsarist regime due to allegedly aggressive minority policies of the German Empire and expectations of a quick victory.[11] The war was mainly regarded as a conflict between the Russian and the German Empires. Among the large diasporas, however, the war was expected to decide over the “national” future of the small nations, and concrete ideas for independent states were discussed.[12] At first, among Lithuanian intellectuals, such ideas gained ground once the Russian Army was driven out of East Prussia. The evacuations and destruction wreaked by the hands of Tsarist soldiers in the course of their retreat made their return seem unlikely. This changed only with the Russian counter attacks in autumn 1916 and the stabilization of the front at Dvinsk and Riga.[13]

Socialists and social democrats in the Baltics overwhelmingly opposed the war, stating that the Baltic Sea region should not be a focus region for the struggle between the imperialist powers. As Finland did not directly participate in the war, Finnish socialists could avoid the dilemma of having to decide for or against patriotism. Despite their contempt for Tsarist rule, social democrats in the Baltics did not support a German victory either, as German social democracy had, in their eyes, discredited itself by their agreement to Burgfrieden and the Peace Interpellation (Friedensinterpellation), which was perceived as an approval for annexations.[14] The anti-German stance increased after the February Revolution in Russia, which made a democratic Russian federation seem the most attractive option for the realization of national forms of social democracy – not only for political, but also for economic reasons.[15]
Annexation Plans and German Concepts of a Post-War Order↑
The region of the future Baltic States played a significant role in the annexation plans of German politicians, military top brass and conservative intellectuals. Due to its early occupation and its conception by Ludendorff as being his personal military state,[91] the whole region of Ober Ost became a possible area for German colonization, ostensibly as a continuation of the centuries-long history of German settlement in the east (Ostsiedlung). In particular, Courland, which, unlike Lithuania, had a long history of Baltic German economic, political and cultural dominance, served as a projection screen for German annexation fantasies, as the forced evacuation of Latvians left large areas unpopulated and increased the share of German speakers.[92] A radically pro-annexationist report by agronomics professor Max Sering (1857-1939);[93] a popular image of the eastern Baltic region as vast and undeveloped;[94] and propaganda by the “Baltic Trust Council” (Baltischer Vertrauensrat) established by Baltic German émigrés, furthered annexation plans. As a consequence, no other occupied area was visited by so many delegations of noblemen, parliamentarians, ministers, government officials and journalists from the German Empire.[95] Nonetheless, colonization and annexationist ideas were again taken up after the treaty of Brest-Litovsk and the overthrow of Theobald von Bethmann Hollweg (1856-1921), as German military leaders sought to establish puppet regimes in Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland. These plans became obsolete when the chancellorship was taken over by Max von Baden (1867-1929), who abstained from any active interference in the region;[96] and finally by German defeat in the west. The idea of a German colonization of the Baltics, however, survived until well after the collapse of the German Empire, as plenipotentiary to the Baltic Lands, August Winnig (1878-1956), envisioned a Baltic state ranging from West Prussia to Latvia and the idea of settling at the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea became a motivation for volunteers to join Freikorps.[97] Moreover, this concept had a significant influence on German colonization plans in World War II.[98]

German annexation plans had become particularly unattractive for the local elites after the collapse of the Tsarist order and the prospects of a democratic Russia.[99] Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian nationalists, who initially had put cautious hope in cooperation with the Germans, now came to regard autonomy within a democratic Russia as preferable to incorporation into the German Empire. The Russian Provisional Government, however, while supporting Finnish statehood, because of its constitution and apparent willingness to consider Lithuanian and Ukrainian demands, met Latvian and Estonian demands for autonomy with surprise and reluctance.[100] While it finally agreed to unify the governorates of Estonia and the north of Livonia into one Estonian province on 30 March 1917,[101] it never conceded the same to Latvia, partially because the region of Latgale had, for more than a century, been part of Vitebsk governorate.[102]

The Baltics also had a strong significance for debates on a post-war Poland. The idea of re-establishing Poland in its pre-partition borders, which included Lithuania and Courland, was powerful among some groups of Polish political activists and intellectuals. Even among activists who favoured a smaller Poland, the inclusion of at least the Vilnius region was integral – a claim which became a major bone of contention in the interwar period.[103]
https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.n ... le/ukraine
The Ukrainian Revolution and Attempts to Create Independent Countries↑
The revolutionary events in Russia in February 1917 brought the development of analogous processes in its outlying lands of different ethnic groups. The period from March 1917 through October 1920 has been commemorated in Ukrainian lands as the period of the Ukrainian Revolution, as a result of which several attempts were made to create its own nation state. Three phases of revolutionary events stand out: firstly, the creation of the Ukrainian Central Rada (March 1917 - April 1918); secondly, the establishment of a Ukrainian State, or the Hetmanate of Pavlo Skoropadskyi (1873-1945) (the end of April to December 1918); thirdly the formation of the Directory, the course of the Civil War, and the coming of the Bolsheviks to power (January 1919 - October 1920)[8].

On 4 March 1917, a Ukrainian Central Rada (UTsR) was created in Kiev, an urban sociopolitical organization which was transformed into the leader of the Ukrainian national liberation movement. A well-known historian, Mikhail Grushevskii, was elected as its leader and sociopolitical figures Volodymyr Vynnychenko (1880-1951) and Sergei Efremov (1876-1939) as his deputies. On 15 June the first Ukrainian government was created, the General Secretariat. The UTsR published four legislative acts, "Universals", regulating the change of the state legal status of Ukrainian lands. Whereas the First Universal (23 June 1917) declared Ukraine joining a democratic Russia with autonomous status, the Fourth Universal (22 January 1918) had already proclaimed the creation of an independent Ukrainian People's Republic (UNR).[9] On 9 February 1918 the UNR and the countries of the Quadruple Alliance signed the Brest Peace Treaty. The phenomenon of the "Ukrainian Brest" is in the realization that it is "...the first peace in this horrible war."[10] This treaty saved Ukraine from absorption by Soviet Russia and in exchange for military support from Austria-Hungary and Germany it was obligated to supply them with agricultural products. The UNR exhibited an inability to fulfill its obligations, and therefore the Austro-German command was interested in a change of government.

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#21

Post by henryk » 24 Jun 2020, 20:21

Futurist wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 22:13
https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.n ... le/ukraine
The Ukrainian Revolution and Attempts to Create Independent Countries↑
The revolutionary events in Russia in February 1917 brought the development of analogous processes in its outlying lands of different ethnic groups. The period from March 1917 through October 1920 has been commemorated in Ukrainian lands as the period of the Ukrainian Revolution, as a result of which several attempts were made to create its own nation state. Three phases of revolutionary events stand out: firstly, the creation of the Ukrainian Central Rada (March 1917 - April 1918); secondly, the establishment of a Ukrainian State, or the Hetmanate of Pavlo Skoropadskyi (1873-1945) (the end of April to December 1918); thirdly the formation of the Directory, the course of the Civil War, and the coming of the Bolsheviks to power (January 1919 - October 1920)[8].

On 4 March 1917, a Ukrainian Central Rada (UTsR) was created in Kiev, an urban sociopolitical organization which was transformed into the leader of the Ukrainian national liberation movement. A well-known historian, Mikhail Grushevskii, was elected as its leader and sociopolitical figures Volodymyr Vynnychenko (1880-1951) and Sergei Efremov (1876-1939) as his deputies. On 15 June the first Ukrainian government was created, the General Secretariat. The UTsR published four legislative acts, "Universals", regulating the change of the state legal status of Ukrainian lands. Whereas the First Universal (23 June 1917) declared Ukraine joining a democratic Russia with autonomous status, the Fourth Universal (22 January 1918) had already proclaimed the creation of an independent Ukrainian People's Republic (UNR).[9] On 9 February 1918 the UNR and the countries of the Quadruple Alliance signed the Brest Peace Treaty. The phenomenon of the "Ukrainian Brest" is in the realization that it is "...the first peace in this horrible war."[10] This treaty saved Ukraine from absorption by Soviet Russia and in exchange for military support from Austria-Hungary and Germany it was obligated to supply them with agricultural products. The UNR exhibited an inability to fulfill its obligations, and therefore the Austro-German command was interested in a change of government.
This article make it clear Ukrainians reject being part of Russia, and being independent. Here's another:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal ... _Universal
On June 23, 1917 the I Universal declared the autonomy of Ukraine "from now on we alone will create our life". It was an answer of the Central Council of Ukraine to the Provisional Government of Russia for its negative attitude towards the autonomy of Ukraine. According to the I Universal, "not separating from the whole Russia ... Ukrainian people must alone govern their lives", and laws must be approved by the All-National Ukrainian Assembly. The author of the I Universal was Volodymyr Vynnychenko. After the declaration of autonomy, on June 28, 1917 there was created the General Secretariat of Ukraine.
On 25 January 1918 (backdated 22 January 1918) IV Universal declared independence of Ukraine so the Ukrainian People's Republic could conclude an international treaty with the Central Powers.[1] It also condemned Bolshevik aggression.[2]

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#22

Post by Futurist » 24 Jun 2020, 21:04

The Ukrainians only declared independence after the Bolshevik Revolution occurred in Russia--not beforehand!

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#23

Post by henryk » 24 Jun 2020, 22:38

Futurist wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 22:13

Didn't the Balts and Ukrainians themselves initially want to remain in Russia but to have more autonomy, though? I seem to recall that they only became pro-independence after the Bolshevik Revolution occurred in Russia in November 1917.

[/quote]
There are two views:
1) both Lithuania and Estonia declared independence before the Bolshevik Revolution:\
http://conflicts.rem33.com/images/The%2 ... period.htm
By 1915 all the Lithuanian provinces and the Courland region of Latvia was occupied by the German army and by 1917, they occupied Estonia. Their advance into the region was urged on by Baltic Germans, who hoped the German military presence would help them maintain their property and privileges. Baltic nationalists had been pushing mainly for greater autonomy within what they hoped would be a reformed, democratically oriented Russian Empire. The Latvians and Estonians had not even considered the possibility of setting up independent states in the initial phases of World War I. Certainly for the masses the question of independence simply did not arise. (von Rauch) The same might be said of Lithuania. The tsarist regime in Russia was overthrown between February and March of 1917. On February 16th Lithuania declared itself an independent state and was quickly recognized by Germany. Estonia proclaimed independence on February 24th and after the collapse of Germany in November of 1918, Latvia declared independence of November 18th. The newly independent Baltic countries fought against both German and Soviet Union forces until 1920 when the last of the German armies were beaten and peace treaties were finally signed with the Soviet Union.
2) These facts are not recognized in stating an opposing view:
https://russiasperiphery.blogs.wm.edu/baltic-states/
The period of Russian control in the Baltics was steeped in contradictions. On one side, the Baltic intelligentsia was strengthening and beginning to construct a Baltic national myth and identity. On the other side, vast numbers of Russians were immigrating to the Baltics, turning the Balts into minorities in many parts of their territory and advancing the Russification of the area (Lieven, 50). As Lieven notes, “Despite the Baltic blood shed by the Russian Empire, the last decades of Russian imperial rule had been years of great prosperity and social progress for the national intelligentsias.” (Lieven, 55). When the Baltic States gained independence from Russia after the Revolution, the newly formed nations struggled greatly with defining their past under the Empire.
The strong connection between the Balts and the Russians is demonstrated by the fact that a majority of the Balts wanted autonomous status within the USSR after the revolutions of 1917 (Lieven, 57). Strong national groups, however, were able to mobilize the population towards complete independence. The period between 1918-1940 is legendary in Baltic history as a time absent of foreign incursion. The national movement that advocated separation from Russia gained strength, as leaders were elected on pro-Baltic platforms. This conflicted greatly with the multi-ethnic makeup of the Baltic countries, setting the foundation for anti-ethnic minority ideologies. In all three Baltic states, parties emerged that advanced ideas like anti-semitism, and in all three cases, leaders created authoritarian governments to prevent the spread of anti-ethnic sentiment (Lieven, 69). The present-day glorification of this time in the democratic Baltic is ironic in that democracy only existed briefly and was quickly replaced by strong authoritarian nations. These governments were able to stem nationalist sentiment and keep control of the population, until Soviet and German invasion in the 1940s.

Anatol Lieven, The Baltic Revolution: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and the Path to Independence (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993.

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#24

Post by Futurist » 04 Jul 2020, 23:16

The declarations of independence that are mentioned in the first source only appear to have occurred in 1918--as in, after the Bolshevik Revolution had already occurred in Russia.

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Re: The Inquiry on Polish and Czechoslovak borders 1919

#25

Post by henryk » 05 Jul 2020, 21:09

Futurist wrote:
04 Jul 2020, 23:16
The declarations of independence that are mentioned in the first source only appear to have occurred in 1918--as in, after the Bolshevik Revolution had already occurred in Russia.
I think the source confuses events. Certainly the date 16 February seems to match the date Feb 16 1918, the date of Independence.
Here is a UK Foreign Ministry source which gives a date, May 1917:
https://www.wdl.org/en/item/9197/
In preparation for the peace conference that was expected to follow World War I, in the spring of 1917 the British Foreign Office established a special section responsible for preparing background information for use by British delegates to the conference. Russian Poland, Lithuania and White Russia is Number 44 in a series of more than 160 studies produced by the section, most of which were published after the conclusion of the 1919 Paris Peace Conference. The study deals with parts of the Kingdom of Poland acquired by Russia in the 18th-century partitions of Poland (and confirmation of those partitions in 1815 at the Congress of Vienna) as well as the three Lithuanian provinces of the Russian Empire (Grodno, Kovno, and Vilna), and the three provinces (Vitebsk, Mohilev, and Minsk) known as White Russia (present-day Belarus). The book includes sections on physical and political geography, political history, social and political conditions, and economic conditions. The total population of Russian Poland in 1914 was 13,335,400, of whom more than 75 percent were Polish. Minority populations in the country included Jews, Germans, Lithuanians, and Ukrainians (Ruthenians). In Lithuania and White Russia, the population of some 12,000,000 consisted mainly of Belarusians, Jews, and Lithuanians. Much of the study concerns the future of this ethnically and linguistically diverse region. The Lithuanian National Council, at a convention in Petrograd (Saint Petersburg) in May 1917, had issued a call for complete Lithuanian independence, while the Polish political parties had issued a declaration calling for the creation of a Polish-Lithuanian union. The study examines the merits of these conflicting positions, and the potential for conflict with Russia should the Polish proposals be adopted. Following the Paris Peace Conference, Poland and Lithuania were reconstituted as separate sovereign states. The appendix includes the texts (in French) of the Lithuanian and Polish statements on postwar independence.
https://dl.wdl.org/9197/service/9197.pdf
Download of the complete document

Copies of the "Proclamation of Independence by the Lithuanian Diet assembled at Petrograd in May 1917":
Attachments
Lituanian Proclamation May 1917 ii.jpg
Lithuanian Proclamation May 1917 i.jpg

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