Polish artillery

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tigre
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by tigre » 15 Apr 2019 23:19

Yes, it seems. Thank you Sturm78 :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by Sturm78 » 01 Apr 2020 20:32

Hi all,

Does somebody know the exact model of the gun of Polish Wilk-class submarines ?

Sturm78
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 02 Apr 2020 11:02

Quick look in my bumph:
1 Schneider mle 17 100mm L/40 naval gun (100 mm armata morska wz. 1917 Schneider L/40)
(1929-1935) 1 40mm Vickers AA gun (działko przeciwlotnicze 40 mm Vickers (L/40)
(1935 - ) 2 13.2mm Hiotschkiss heavy machine guns on duplex mounting (nkm plot. 13,2 mm Hotchkiss wz.30 (L/76)

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by Sturm78 » 10 Apr 2020 09:58

Thanks for your help, gebhk :wink:

Regards
Sturm78

Robert M Hammond
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by Robert M Hammond » 29 Jul 2020 07:48

Slavomir wrote:
03 Mar 2008 23:36
The Edge wrote:
"old Russian 76mm guns" - Schneider M.06/09 model? (Obr. 1909)
Cheers, Edge
Not too much I could find about those guns. P. Zarzycki in "Foot Artillery in the Polish Army before World War II" says that those platoons were equipped with the model 1902 guns. Sorry, but that's all I could find.

Regards

Slawomir
Fellas,
Hi! I am attempting to find out if the 65mm Guns were used in Combat. Were they used against the Slovakian Army? Is there reading you all can recommend that will help me to understand the use of this gun in 1939? Did the Romanians ever use this Gun in WW2?

All the best,
Robert

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Re:

Post by Robert M Hammond » 29 Jul 2020 07:55

Slavomir wrote:
10 Feb 2008 22:30
The Edge wrote: Note about Polish mountain artillery - all sources are unanimous - only 24 guns 65mm caliber (French Mle 06 Puteaux). If you see Polish OOB for 1939, they had only three mountain brigades, each with one artillery battalion of two batteries (8 guns total, i.e. 3 x 8 = 24)
The problem with Polish mountain brigades were ad hoc units formed after German annexation of Bohemia and creation of Slovak state.

1st Brigade (Army "Karakow") had two - 151st and 152nd arty batteries;
2nd Brigade (Army "Karpaty") had only one - 153rd battery

Only 12 of 65mm guns were used in combat

Regards
Dear Slavomir,
Hi! Where were these art batteries located at on 1 Sept 39?
All the best,
Robert

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by Robert M Hammond » 06 Aug 2020 07:33

gebhk wrote:
26 Feb 2013 22:10
Sadly Wiki only as good as the author!

Can't find the source documents quickly so here is Konstankiewicz to be getting on with:
65mm mountain gun wz 1906 - 24
Listers,

Howdy! Did the 65mm Guns have a Canister round? Were any of the 65mm Guns used in combat?

Thank you!
Robert Hammond

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 06 Aug 2020 10:32

Hi Robert

My bumph says not - Shrapnel and HE (Granat wz. 1910) only.

AFAIK all three batteries were used in action.

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jabu
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Re: Re:

Post by jabu » 24 Aug 2020 16:10

Dear Robert,
Robert M Hammond wrote:
29 Jul 2020 07:55

Dear Slavomir,
Hi! Where were these art batteries located at on 1 Sept 39?
All the best,
Robert
153rd battery: the village of Świdnica:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Anietnica
The battery was stationed there - and in the vicinity - in the valley of the Biała River, defending to cross the river and enter the valley:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82a_(Dunajec)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82 ... w_Dunajca)
153rd battery (4 x guns 65 mm, commander capt. Jerzy Wróblewski) was loaded onto a train in Cracow city. Departure date August 27, 1939. Transported by rail to the unloading station in Nowy Sącz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowy_S%C4%85cz
Along with 153rd battery was planned to transport two other units: two ON artillery platoons (abbrev.ON – Obrona Narodowa - National Defense) – exactly 1st and 2nd artillery platoons (1., 2. sądecki pluton artylerii ON)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalion_ ... z%E2%80%9D
Planned - each platoon had 2 guns 65 mm. (It was planned to create 12 artillery platoons from 24 guns in total - for the ON battalions. This plan was unrealistic at the time of planning. Some of the guns (exactly half -12) had already been "developed" in Cracow city. The 6th Light Artillery Regiment mobilized at Cracow - 12 guns from three four-gun mountain artillery batteries distributed to two mountain brigades. So at the end of August 1939, there were (probably) 12 guns left in the warehouse - intended for 2-gun platoons - for ON battalions.
These 12 platoons were to be ready for the 19th day of mobilization. But probably this date did not apply to all platoons - for example, the two platoons mentioned above (1st and 2nd sądecki) were to be ready on September 20, 1939.
Unfortunately, before the war (before September 1, 1939), there was no chance to organize probably a single platoon. Therefore, on August 27, 153rd battery left by train alone. Only one ON artillery platoon was organized (1st platoon in Żywiec) for this battalion:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalion_ ... c%E2%80%9D
but instead 65mm mountain gun wz 1906 he was assigned 2 x Bofors 37 mm anti-tank gun on the eve of the war.
Write - if you are interested in the places of presence 153rd battery during the following days of the 1939 campaign.
Detailed fate of the 151st and 152nd batteries mountain artillery are unknown.

The 151st battery (commandem by capt. Aleksander Dunin-Żuchowski) provided on 1st Sept. 39 artillery support on the section "Żywiec" (resistance point around the village: Węgierska Górka, Jeleśnia and Korbielów), where the defense was based on 14 bunkers of varying completion.

The 152nd battery (commanded by capt. Stanisław Jan Sacha) provided on 1st Sept. 39 artillery support on 1st Rifle Mountain Regiment (earlier - until August 31, 1931, it was called the 1st KOP Infantry Regiment):
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Pu%C5%82k_Piechoty_KOP
who defended the passages in the area of the villages of Chabówka and Jordanów:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chab%C3%B3wka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan%C3%B3w
In 1st Rifle Mountain Regiment defense zone there was also a brigade command post in the village of Skomielna Biała
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skomielna_Bia%C5%82a
It is possible that 152nd battery had positions near the brigade's command post.

Moreover - a few 65mm mountain gun wz 1906 were in Cracow. In Depot No. 5 (in May-June 1939, probably 22 qty 65 mm guns were stored there. The condition of these guns was: 20 A class and one each class B and C (it's actually 20 qty +1 qty in category B, which was not suitable
for repair). I would like to add that according to the document dated May 8, 1939 (pismo z-cy Szefa Departamentu Artylerii, płk. dypl. Jerzego Łunkiewicza, do Szefa Oddziału I Sztabu Głównego z 8 maja 1939 r.) – „that the renovation of 16 cannons and 125 biedek (of will remain completed by May 16, 1939”. Biedka - I don't know how it is in English? Dogcart? It is two-wheeled means of transport for machine guns, light infantry mortars, light cannons, ammo, communication equipment:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedka
After handing over 12 guns to two mountain brigades (151st, 152nd, 153rd battery –having together 12 guns) - probably a few 65 mm mountain guns were left in Cracow. It is possible that 1st Sept 39 - were no longer in Depot No. 5 but in the 6th Light Artillery Regiment barracks. From June 9, 1939 in this artillery regiment barracks were trained reservists in service 65 mm mountain guns. These several 65 mm guns was initially planned to include in the defense system of Cracow. But the defense of city was soon abandoned - so the plan was abandoned as well. It is possible that some improvised artillery platoons were either left or armed, which withdrew from the city with the cannons (probably on 4th September). Unfortunately, I have no information about the units. That's my guess.

In May-June 1939, apart from Depot No. 5 in Cracow or 6th Light Artillery Regiment barracks in - there were still 2-4 65 mm mountain guns in: There were two (or one - various data) guns each in the 20th Light Artillery Regiment in Prużanie and in the 22nd Light Artillery Regiment in Rzeszów (Przemyśl).
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_Pu%C5% ... ii_Lekkiej
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruzhany

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_Pu%C5% ... ej_(II_RP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przemy%C5%9Bl
22nd Light Artillery Regiment probably it really had two 65 mm guns, because in May 1939 at this unit was organized training in service this type weapons for 21 soldiers (only officers and NCOs). For the duration of the course created a platoon of mountain artillery. As part of the training, the handling of guns and ammunition as well as shooting were practiced. So they had to have guns.

I hope I helped.
Regards,
Jabu

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 27 Aug 2020 11:49

Janu

Thanks for a positively encyclopaedic contribution on a little known piece of kit. Much appreciated.

Biedka = 1-horse cart: there is no equivalent word in English AFAIK. For a laugh I looked it up on Google Translate which would have us believe it means 'a poor lady' :lol:

IPiMGS (PISM) has a record of every piece of artillery gear in storage just before the war. Though not dated best guess it was for 31.8.39. (AII8/5 17). Alas I have only the sheets relating to the 3" field guns and IPiMGS is currently closed due to C19. However I am happy to look up what 65mm equipment was held when IPiMGS reopens, if that is any use to you.

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Re: Polish artillery

Post by Robert M Hammond » 13 Sep 2020 04:40

gebhk wrote:
06 Aug 2020 10:32
Hi Robert

My bumph says not - Shrapnel and HE (Granat wz. 1910) only.

AFAIK all three batteries were used in action.
Dear gebhk,

Hi! Thank you. What is the main difference between a Shrapnel round vs a Canister round?

All the best!

Robert M Hammond
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Posts: 8
Joined: 24 Dec 2019 01:23
Location: California

Re: Re:

Post by Robert M Hammond » 13 Sep 2020 04:47

jabu wrote:
24 Aug 2020 16:10
Dear Robert,


153rd battery: the village of Świdnica:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Anietnica
The battery was stationed there - and in the vicinity - in the valley of the Biała River, defending to cross the river and enter the valley:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82a_(Dunajec)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82 ... w_Dunajca)
153rd battery (4 x guns 65 mm, commander capt. Jerzy Wróblewski) was loaded onto a train in Cracow city. Departure date August 27, 1939. Transported by rail to the unloading station in Nowy Sącz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowy_S%C4%85cz
Along with 153rd battery was planned to transport two other units: two ON artillery platoons (abbrev.ON – Obrona Narodowa - National Defense) – exactly 1st and 2nd artillery platoons (1., 2. sądecki pluton artylerii ON)
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalion_ ... z%E2%80%9D
Planned - each platoon had 2 guns 65 mm. (It was planned to create 12 artillery platoons from 24 guns in total - for the ON battalions. This plan was unrealistic at the time of planning. Some of the guns (exactly half -12) had already been "developed" in Cracow city. The 6th Light Artillery Regiment mobilized at Cracow - 12 guns from three four-gun mountain artillery batteries distributed to two mountain brigades. So at the end of August 1939, there were (probably) 12 guns left in the warehouse - intended for 2-gun platoons - for ON battalions.
These 12 platoons were to be ready for the 19th day of mobilization. But probably this date did not apply to all platoons - for example, the two platoons mentioned above (1st and 2nd sądecki) were to be ready on September 20, 1939.
Unfortunately, before the war (before September 1, 1939), there was no chance to organize probably a single platoon. Therefore, on August 27, 153rd battery left by train alone. Only one ON artillery platoon was organized (1st platoon in Żywiec) for this battalion:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batalion_ ... c%E2%80%9D
but instead 65mm mountain gun wz 1906 he was assigned 2 x Bofors 37 mm anti-tank gun on the eve of the war.
Write - if you are interested in the places of presence 153rd battery during the following days of the 1939 campaign.
Detailed fate of the 151st and 152nd batteries mountain artillery are unknown.

The 151st battery (commandem by capt. Aleksander Dunin-Żuchowski) provided on 1st Sept. 39 artillery support on the section "Żywiec" (resistance point around the village: Węgierska Górka, Jeleśnia and Korbielów), where the defense was based on 14 bunkers of varying completion.

The 152nd battery (commanded by capt. Stanisław Jan Sacha) provided on 1st Sept. 39 artillery support on 1st Rifle Mountain Regiment (earlier - until August 31, 1931, it was called the 1st KOP Infantry Regiment):
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Pu%C5%82k_Piechoty_KOP
who defended the passages in the area of the villages of Chabówka and Jordanów:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chab%C3%B3wka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan%C3%B3w
In 1st Rifle Mountain Regiment defense zone there was also a brigade command post in the village of Skomielna Biała
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skomielna_Bia%C5%82a
It is possible that 152nd battery had positions near the brigade's command post.

Moreover - a few 65mm mountain gun wz 1906 were in Cracow. In Depot No. 5 (in May-June 1939, probably 22 qty 65 mm guns were stored there. The condition of these guns was: 20 A class and one each class B and C (it's actually 20 qty +1 qty in category B, which was not suitable
for repair). I would like to add that according to the document dated May 8, 1939 (pismo z-cy Szefa Departamentu Artylerii, płk. dypl. Jerzego Łunkiewicza, do Szefa Oddziału I Sztabu Głównego z 8 maja 1939 r.) – „that the renovation of 16 cannons and 125 biedek (of will remain completed by May 16, 1939”. Biedka - I don't know how it is in English? Dogcart? It is two-wheeled means of transport for machine guns, light infantry mortars, light cannons, ammo, communication equipment:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedka
After handing over 12 guns to two mountain brigades (151st, 152nd, 153rd battery –having together 12 guns) - probably a few 65 mm mountain guns were left in Cracow. It is possible that 1st Sept 39 - were no longer in Depot No. 5 but in the 6th Light Artillery Regiment barracks. From June 9, 1939 in this artillery regiment barracks were trained reservists in service 65 mm mountain guns. These several 65 mm guns was initially planned to include in the defense system of Cracow. But the defense of city was soon abandoned - so the plan was abandoned as well. It is possible that some improvised artillery platoons were either left or armed, which withdrew from the city with the cannons (probably on 4th September). Unfortunately, I have no information about the units. That's my guess.

In May-June 1939, apart from Depot No. 5 in Cracow or 6th Light Artillery Regiment barracks in - there were still 2-4 65 mm mountain guns in: There were two (or one - various data) guns each in the 20th Light Artillery Regiment in Prużanie and in the 22nd Light Artillery Regiment in Rzeszów (Przemyśl).
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_Pu%C5% ... ii_Lekkiej
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruzhany

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_Pu%C5% ... ej_(II_RP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przemy%C5%9Bl
22nd Light Artillery Regiment probably it really had two 65 mm guns, because in May 1939 at this unit was organized training in service this type weapons for 21 soldiers (only officers and NCOs). For the duration of the course created a platoon of mountain artillery. As part of the training, the handling of guns and ammunition as well as shooting were practiced. So they had to have guns.

I hope I helped.
Regards,
Jabu
Dear Jabu,

WOW! Thank you so very much for this. This will take me a few days or a week to read all of this. This helps me tremendously in my research. I am sure I will have a few more questions for you, if that is okay??

I am attempting to learn about forces that fought against the 153rd battery. Do you have any idea how well trained the gun crews were for the 153rd?

Blessings!
Robert

Robert M Hammond
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Re: Polish artillery

Post by Robert M Hammond » 13 Sep 2020 04:51

gebhk wrote:
27 Aug 2020 11:49
Janu

Thanks for a positively encyclopaedic contribution on a little known piece of kit. Much appreciated.

Biedka = 1-horse cart: there is no equivalent word in English AFAIK. For a laugh I looked it up on Google Translate which would have us believe it means 'a poor lady' :lol:

IPiMGS (PISM) has a record of every piece of artillery gear in storage just before the war. Though not dated best guess it was for 31.8.39. (AII8/5 17). Alas I have only the sheets relating to the 3" field guns and IPiMGS is currently closed due to C19. However I am happy to look up what 65mm equipment was held when IPiMGS reopens, if that is any use to you.
Dear gebhk,

Hi! I would be VERY interested in the records of the 65mm Guns. I will happily learn about all that you share with me. Thank you!

All the best,
Robert

gebhk
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Posts: 768
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: Polish artillery

Post by gebhk » 13 Sep 2020 21:49

Hi Robert

Apologies, I was so enthralled by Jabu's excellent post that I didn't spot your previous query. I am no expert, but at the most basic level, a canister round releases its charge of ball or other nastiness from the barrel of the gun or just in front of it, in a cone-shaped distribution with the base towards the enemy - in effect turning the gun into a large shotgun. It is used to defend the gun against close assault by the enemy. The film 'Gettysburg' gives a creditable illustration of the effects of canister blast at close quarters in the climactic moment of 'Pickett's charge' if you like that sort of illustration. The flechette-firing beehive rounds are a more modern example of this type of munition.

A Shrapnel round, while also containing ball or similar unpleasantness, explodes at the other end of the missile's trajectory by means of a time fuse, scattering the ball and fragments of the casing all over the shop (I believe 'Gettysburg' also shows aerial explosions of Shrapnel-type rounds at various moments of the film, although i could be over-interpreting). Shrapnel was particularly effective against troops in trenches and such like as well as in the open, if the missile could be accurately exploded above them. I believe a significant portion, if not the majority, of artillery-caused casualties in WW1 were from Shrapnel.

In short, canister kills soft targets near the gun while Shrapnel kills at a distance. Between the wars, it was found that if appropriately crafted, a simple HE round would cause as much damage as a Shrapnel round, if not more, with just the shell-case fragments but was (I presume) easier and cheaper to make. Shrapnel, therefore, went out of fashion before WW2. However, no doubt, stocks of Shrapnel rounds for the Polish 65mm mountain guns existed because, I presume, they had been around since WW1. In any event, being a non-standard weapon there was no provision for managing its ammunition within the overall ammunition supply framework so supply and resupply would have been ad-hoc ie they would have been issued with whatever happened to be available. Another benefit of Shrapnel rounds is giving a limited ability to hit troops in dead ground to flat-trajectory weapons. It is, I presume, not a coincidence that the only weapons in the standard Polish artillery park to have a Shrapnel round in 1939 were the 75mm cannon. The over-abundance of dead ground in mountain warfare, therefore, may have been another factor for the retention of the Shrapnel round by the 65mm mountain guns.

I will add your query on stocks to my growing pile of stuff to check when IPiMGS opens again... 8-)G
Last edited by gebhk on 14 Sep 2020 11:03, edited 2 times in total.

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jabu
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Re: Re:

Post by jabu » 13 Sep 2020 22:52

Dear Robert,
Robert M Hammond wrote:
13 Sep 2020 04:47
This will take me a few days or a week to read all of this.
Tomorrow I will try to write you even more. The more so because I made a few mistakes (eg glaring untruth about 14 bunkers. I hope no Pole has read it. If he read - it will be a shame. :oops: The result of haste and fatigue.
Robert M Hammond wrote:
13 Sep 2020 04:47
This helps me tremendously in my research. I am sure I will have a few more questions for you, if that is okay??
I am now writing an article about the use of Japanese mountain artillery by Polish artillerymen in 1918 (the Type 31 75 mm mountain cannons captured by the Russians). But no publisher is waiting for this article. So he writes for himself - for the future. I can put that down and answer your questions at length.
Robert M Hammond wrote:
13 Sep 2020 04:47
I am attempting to learn about forces that fought against the 153rd battery. Do you have any idea how well trained the gun crews were for the 153rd?
There is a little problem with this battery. First, little happened in the battery defense area for the first few days. Then battery got ... lost. The least certain facts are known about her.
Were these artillerymen well trained? I have my doubts. But that's just my guess. Instead, I can share these doubts with you and justify them.
Request: also verify information obtained from me with other people. I do not specialize in the 1939 Campaign. My knowledge is (unfortunately) only basic. I can make mistakes.

Regards,
Jabu

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