Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by gebhk » 14 Sep 2020 08:56

Sid, it's worth noting that considering that there were six million Jews murdered by the Nazis in total, their removal would have still allowed a whopping 600,000 Germans to be fed by your own calculations (since 6 million divided by ten equals 600,000)!
Although, I still think it's worth repeating that this is an assumption based on the somewhat naïve belief that if you take a bunch of people out of the economy, there will automatically be exactly that amount of food available for everyone else. This is virtually never if not, in fact, never the case (unless the environment is a small and enclosed community with a limited food supply - say 6 men on a life-boat or a castle under siege). I doubt that the common denominator of so many 'social experiments' being food shortages is an accident.
You are absolutely correct that the decision to spark World War II was exclusively Germany's own and was completely avoidable, though.
Not only that, but the fact that large swathes of Germany's population were locked out of making an independent contribution to the economy in various ways (concentration camps, ghettos, armed forces etc) was also the choice of the government.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 22:00

The Nazis identified a mortal danger to their war efforts and took preventive measures.
It didn't matter if they were right or wrong, or if eventually the Germans got fatter a little or not.
They honestly believed they were right and that the preventive measures were necessary.

According to their moral system, their enemies the Poles, Jews, the Soviets were going to suffer first before any Germans. Hitler said that many times.
And you should always plan for the worst anyway, especially remembering the famine Germany was subject to during WW1.

So all the arguments that it could have been done differently are spurious.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 22:01

wm wrote:
15 Sep 2020 22:00
So all the arguments that it could have been done differently are spurious.
Unless one believes that Germany should not have started WWII in the first place, that is.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 22:42

A Nazi would respond that Poland attacked first, committed acts of terror against Germany, and then France and Britain declared unprovoked war.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 22:43

The "Polish attack" was actually staged by Nazi Germany, though. Nazis can dispute this however they want, but facts remain facts.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 22:45

They didn't know that.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 22:56

The Nazis at the top did, I'm presuming; possibly not lower-ranking Nazis, though.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 23:04

According to Gilbert the defendants (Göring, Keitel, etc. ) at the first Nuremberg trial were surprised and angered when it was revealed during the trial.
Gilbert was there and as a psychologist, he was unlikely to be fooled by fake emotions.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 23:11

Interesting. Good acting or genuine surprise on these Nazis' part? Did Hitler keep even them in the dark about this?

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 23:28

Why should Hitler have told them? They didn't need to know, and it would be counterproductive anyway.
He didn't tell anybody about the Holocaust either.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by Futurist » 15 Sep 2020 23:40

He told the people at the Wannsee Conference about the Holocaust--either directly or indirectly--no?

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by wm » 15 Sep 2020 23:50

No, they were told the Jews were to be deported to the East for security reasons.
And he wasn't even there anyway.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 00:14

He wasn't even there but his will must have somehow passed on to them beforehand, no?

Also, what exactly did they expect would happen to the Jews in the East afterwards? Or were they unaware of Germany's food supply problems? (I seem to recall Sid Guttridge or someone here previously saying that Nazi Germany's chronic food situation wasn't discussed at all at Wannsee.)

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by wm » 16 Sep 2020 00:33

There was certainly more food in the rural East than in Germany.

Deportation or interment of unreliable persons was a standard procedure during both wars. Everybody was doing it.
The Americans sent to camps their Japanese Americans. The Soviets were doing it all the time.

Himmler knew, and a few of his henchmen, commandants of death camps (who reported directly to Himmler) knew, and their (tiny) crews.
The rest didn't have to know anything, except the Jews were to be sent to the East.

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Re: Had the harvest in Poland been as good in 1941 as it was in 1942, would there have still been a Holocaust in Poland?

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 01:22

Was there an expectation that there will be enough food in the East for everyone, including the locals, the Jews, and the Germans?

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