How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 20:59

wm wrote:
16 Sep 2020 19:57
Polish bombers needed less than an hour to reach Berlin, and they didn't have a single fighter.
"They" meaning the Germans, correct?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by gebhk » 16 Sep 2020 21:28

The logic would be to reduce the risk of Germany pursuing a revanchist war for Danzig at some future point in time. If Danzig will become much more Polish, Germany's claim on it will become weaker--at least in comparison to before.
This seems to be a non-sequitur. If Danzig is Polish controlled how can an unnecessary 'move towards' something it already has make any difference to German claims?

Regarding making Danzig more Polish (a different proposition altogether), then yes Germany's claim in the eyes of the world would have become weaker over time. However, I can't imagine that making a jot's difference to AH - which was the original question.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by gebhk » 16 Sep 2020 21:32

Also, had Weimar Germany survived, just how long do you think that it would have maintained its trade war against Poland?
I guess as long as they could maintain it out of spite. At the end of the day it was hurting Germany's economy too by making raw materials - the bulk of what Poland was exporting to Germany - more expensive and not having the desired effect on the Poles.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 21:36

gebhk wrote:
16 Sep 2020 21:28
The logic would be to reduce the risk of Germany pursuing a revanchist war for Danzig at some future point in time. If Danzig will become much more Polish, Germany's claim on it will become weaker--at least in comparison to before.
This seems to be a non-sequitur. If Danzig is Polish controlled how can an unnecessary 'move towards' something it already has make any difference to German claims?

Regarding making Danzig more Polish (a different proposition altogether), then yes Germany's claim in the eyes of the world would have become weaker over time. However, I can't imagine that making a jot's difference to AH - which was the original question.
The first sentence of your second paragraph answers the question in the last sentence of your first paragraph here. Specifically, this would make the German claim weaker in the world's eyes.

Thanks for your response in the final sentence in the second paragraph here, though.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 21:37

gebhk wrote:
16 Sep 2020 21:32
Also, had Weimar Germany survived, just how long do you think that it would have maintained its trade war against Poland?
I guess as long as they could maintain it out of spite. At the end of the day it was hurting Germany's economy too by making raw materials - the bulk of what Poland was exporting to Germany - more expensive and not having the desired effect on the Poles.
Could Germany import raw materials from elsewhere?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by gebhk » 16 Sep 2020 22:22

Could Germany import raw materials from elsewhere?
I'm sure she could but, presumably, the reason that such large quantities were imported from Poland was because it was the best value. Given who German's other neighbours were, it's not difficult to guess why while importing from further afield often means greater transport costs.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 22:47

Well, a lot of things require making sacrifices. So, if Germany wanted to economically bully Poland, it would have had to accept higher transport costs. That's just life.

BTW, were transport costs from Slovakia really higher than those from Poland?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by gebhk » 16 Sep 2020 23:01

BTW, were transport costs from Slovakia really higher than those from Poland?
There was no Slovakia in 1918-33 while Czechoslovakia had its own relatively well-developed industry so I doubt it was likely to export cheap raw materials on the scale Poland was. Just speculation, mind you.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 23:57

I meant the territory that is now Slovakia.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by gebhk » 17 Sep 2020 10:25

I do get that. However, the fact that Slovakia was then not an independent country but part of a larger, more industrialised whole is significant. Ultimately, we must assume that German businesses were not importing stuff from Poland out of charity. If Czechoslovakia had better VFM to offer, that is where they would have done their shopping (or more of their shopping). The fact that they were not doing so, suggests either that the Czechoslovak offer was not best VFM or that they were already purchasing everything Czechoslovakia had to offer and there was no more.
Well, a lot of things require making sacrifices.
However, I am sure you will agree, in this type of deal the ones who are making the sacrifices (businesses and their dependents) are often not the ones who benefit (politicians and as often as not, the competitors who exploit the new opportunities). This matters, particularly in a democracy. Given that, arguably, Germany's economic woes did as much to kill the Weimar Republic and hoist AH into power as any of his blarney, doing anything that potentially undermined the economy was a dangerous game to play, I would suggest.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020 20:38

Till 1925 the Germans were required to grant Polish imports the most-favored-nation status. After that, they banned Polish coal and increased tariffs on other imports.
That led to an economic war that Poland won because Poland actually imported more than exported, and (luckily) new large markets emerged in Britain and the Nordic countries for Polish coal.

Interestingly the coal wasn't really even that "Polish." One third was owned by a Jew - Alfred Falter (a hugely impressive man, called the only Polish capitalist), who owned a large part of the Polish merchant fleet too.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020 21:04

Which parts of Poland did the coal come from? Upper Silesia? Where else?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020 21:44

Upper Silesia.

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020 23:31

That's it?

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Re: How would Hitler's policy towards Poland have been different had Danzig been outright given to Poland back in 1919?

Post by wm » 17 Sep 2020 23:56

Well, coal doesn't grow on trees. There were other places but seriously dilapidated and of lesser importance.

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